11' boards

does anyone have any experience shaping long gliders? i was surfing tourmaline last week and borrowed an 11’6" hank warner – it was sooo much fun i want to try and shape one for myself. the next day i saw someone with what looked like another 11 footer, this one was a skip frye – had a fish-like tail – tri fin and very little rocker – sounds wacky huh? the board and surfer wailed

does anyone have any experience shaping long gliders? i was surfing > tourmaline last week and borrowed an 11’6" hank warner – it was sooo > much fun i want to try and shape one for myself. the next day i saw > someone with what looked like another 11 footer, this one was a skip frye > – had a fish-like tail – tri fin and very little rocker – sounds wacky > huh? the board and surfer wailed That Frye was a Fish Simmons - two pintails together, complex bottom contours and usually a tri-fin. The first board I ever shaped was out of a 12’3" Velzy/Downing blank. These big boards are pretty easy to shape since the board is so big that little glitches here and there aren’t really problems like they would be on a smaller board. You need a big shaping room and a strong arm to make sure you can reach the other side of the blank - or if your ambidextrous you can switch hands and go over to the other side of the board and shape that way. Make sure you don’t go too flat or it will be tough to turn, even though it’s not recommended I shaped a little more rocker into the nose and tail so that I could turn it pretty easily. Also I didn’t realize how much time it would take to glass the thing and I mixed my laminating batch too hot and I was surforming gelled resing balls off it for a day or two. It ended up being my favorite board to ride on those flat summre days and when it got big I’d take it out there too - I could get covered and ride the nose. Read if for what it’s worth - Be careful that you use a little more diplomacy when ridding a board that big (of course I’m assuming you don’t pack the poundage to make it necessary to ride a board that big). It’s very easy to take all the waves you can get and make people upset. http://www.geocities.com/surfore

That Frye was a Fish Simmons - two pintails together, complex bottom > contours and usually a tri-fin.>>> The first board I ever shaped was out of a 12’3" Velzy/Downing blank. > These big boards are pretty easy to shape since the board is so big that > little glitches here and there aren’t really problems like they would be > on a smaller board. You need a big shaping room and a strong arm to make > sure you can reach the other side of the blank - or if your ambidextrous > you can switch hands and go over to the other side of the board and shape > that way. Make sure you don’t go too flat or it will be tough to turn, > even though it’s not recommended I shaped a little more rocker into the > nose and tail so that I could turn it pretty easily. Also I didn’t realize > how much time it would take to glass the thing and I mixed my laminating > batch too hot and I was surforming gelled resing balls off it for a day or > two. It ended up being my favorite board to ride on those flat summre days > and when it got big I’d take it out there too - I could get covered and > ride the nose.>>> Read if for what it’s worth - Be careful that you use a little more > diplomacy when ridding a board that big (of course I’m assuming you don’t > pack the poundage to make it necessary to ride a board that big). It’s > very easy to take all the waves you can get and make people upset. thanks drew. i think i will order up the above mentioned blank and give it a whirl. i agree with the diplomacy – the 11’6" could and was catching ripples. as far as diplomacy the dude on the frye could also catch a ton, and was. he wasn’t the problem. it was the guy(s) who would have no idea. take off on any wave no matter where he was or other surfers were. he sucked. people just sorta nod their heads. hopefully one day the guy on the stewart will become aware of where he is and where others are and that tons of waves and fun are to be had. i know – people talking about this is sooo annoying…but true

thanks drew. i think i will order up the above mentioned blank and give it > a whirl. i agree with the diplomacy – the 11’6" could and was > catching ripples. as far as diplomacy the dude on the frye could also > catch a ton, and was. he wasn’t the problem. it was the guy(s) who would > have no idea. take off on any wave no matter where he was or other surfers > were. he sucked. people just sorta nod their heads. hopefully one day the > guy on the stewart will become aware of where he is and where others are > and that tons of waves and fun are to be had. i know – people talking > about this is sooo annoying…but true Tim, Sleek designs like that can work very well (and even faster) if used in small waves with a thin-foiled keel fin, about 3" to 5" high x 10" to 12" long. Fins with such a shallow draft open up an even wider range of waves: the world of walled-up, clean little peelers, traveling for satisfying distances across sandbars, reefs and cobblestone shorelines, in water way less than knee deep… with the paddle back outside being not so much work, as pure pleasure. Dale

Dale - maybe you could provide a template when your stuff is presented on this site? (We’re waiting…)>>> Tim,>>> Sleek designs like that can work very well (and even faster) if used in > small waves with a thin-foiled keel fin, about 3" to 5" high x > 10" to 12" long. Fins with such a shallow draft open up an even > wider range of waves: the world of walled-up, clean little peelers, > traveling for satisfying distances across sandbars, reefs and cobblestone > shorelines, in water way less than knee deep… with the paddle back > outside being not so much work, as pure pleasure.>>> Dale

Hang in there John…I’m working on it…

Dale - maybe you could provide a template when your stuff is presented on > this site? (We’re waiting…) John, I apologize, and in this case, I could provide scale drawings, but no photos remain (or were ever taken) of many old projects. By way of a current example, one of my ongoing efforts for a Hawaiian business client involves the creation of (lightweight, inflatable, 9-0" surfboard which will be stabilized by) a custom molded, 4" x 9", 80A durometer polyurethane keel fin (in relation to the discussion of "11 boards")… needless to say, I can`t show or discuss further details with anyone outside of the client. This has frequently been the nature of my work, so if as a rule, we must provide scale diagrams and/or photo documentation, I must respectfully withdraw and enjoy Swaylocks simply as an enthusiastic reader. Dale

Tim,>>> Sleek designs like that can work very well (and even faster) if used in > small waves with a thin-foiled keel fin, about 3" to 5" high x > 10" to 12" long. Fins with such a shallow draft open up an even > wider range of waves: the world of walled-up, clean little peelers, > traveling for satisfying distances across sandbars, reefs and cobblestone > shorelines, in water way less than knee deep… with the paddle back > outside being not so much work, as pure pleasure.>>> Dale Dale, Can you expand on the fins you are describing? Are they available commercially or is this something that one must construct out of plywood? Thanks, Magoo

Magoo, Although experimented with in the past (especially on fast pintails), no one I am aware of currently offers commercial keel fins… very simple fins to pressure laminate, I would layer about (35) 4 oz. or (25) 6 oz., foil thin to around 5/16" to 3/8" thick, blend a full fairing into the bottom surface. I have used lots of keel fins that fall within in the range previously mentioned. The ones that I have used most recently look a bit like the original Lis keel fins, only shallower and stretched out a bit… sometimes I saw through the base from the back of fin to the front third or so to increase flex along the bottom, rather than from the top; the flexible rudder kind of thing. It is also possible to make a foam, bondo and resin master (male) plug of the fin you choose to experiment with, apply a thin layer of silicone over it, then coat plaster over that to create a mother mold and finally pour catalyzed polyurethane (80 A durometer or a little higher) into the female mold. The result being a fleshy, muscle-like, resilient stabilizer that can be adhered (and readhered) to the boards bottom surface with commercial grade contact adhesives. Fins made this way usually have to be a little thicker than if they were constructed of fiberglass and resin. With the properly (balanced) setup, your board might tend to find a good line before you do! But, bear in mind, they are not much for contemporary surfings abrupt directional changes, tending to smooth everything out, seeking the more simple (and primitive?) lines of speed. But, in certain waves, this can be a completely fulfilling objective. Hey, Magoo, all this stuff (and so much more) is just waiting there to be played with… it isn`t some sort of sacred theology, either! We need only open the door.

Magoo, Although experimented with in the past (especially on fast pintails), no one I am aware of currently offers commercial keel fins… very simple fins to pressure laminate, I would layer about (35) 4 oz. or (25) 6 oz., foil thin to around 5/16" to 3/8" thick, blend a full fairing into the bottom surface. I have used lots of keel fins that fall within in the range previously mentioned. The ones that I have used most recently look a bit like the original Lis keel fins, only shallower and stretched out a bit… sometimes I saw through the base from the back of fin to the front third or so to increase flex along the bottom, rather than from the top; the flexible rudder kind of thing. It is also possible to make a foam, bondo and resin master (male) plug of the fin you choose to experiment with, apply a thin layer of silicone over it, then coat plaster over that to create a mother mold and finally pour catalyzed polyurethane (80 A durometer or a little higher) into the female mold. The result being a fleshy, muscle-like, resilient stabilizer that can be adhered (and readhered) to the boards bottom surface with commercial grade contact adhesives. Fins made this way usually have to be a little thicker than if they were constructed of fiberglass and resin. With the properly (balanced) setup, your board might tend to find a good line before you do! But, bear in mind, they are not much for contemporary surfings abrupt directional changes, tending to smooth everything out, seeking the more simple (and primitive?) lines of speed. But, in certain waves, this can be a completely fulfilling objective. Hey, Magoo, all this stuff (and so much more) is just waiting there to be played with… it isn`t some sort of sacred theology, either! We need only open the door.

Hey Dale - In regards to the keel fin template… I remember seeing some keels that were brought over to California by Wayne Lynch and Nat Young in the early 70s. The leading edge was concave to the tip (about 2/3 back) followed by a concave trailing edge back to the base. The keel templates I remember on the Lis fish designs had a convex leading edge and fairly sraight vertical trailing edge. Are these (the latter) the type you are referring to?>>> Magoo,>>> Although experimented with in the past (especially on fast pintails), no > one I am aware of currently offers commercial keel fins… very simple > fins to pressure laminate, I would layer about (35) 4 oz. or (25) 6 oz., > foil thin to around 5/16" to 3/8" thick, blend a full fairing > into the bottom surface. I have used lots of keel fins that fall within in > the range previously mentioned. The ones that I have used most recently > look a bit like the original Lis keel fins, only shallower and stretched > out a bit… sometimes I saw through the base from the back of fin to the > front third or so to increase flex along the bottom, rather than from the > top; the flexible rudder kind of thing.>>> It is also possible to make a foam, bondo and resin master (male) plug of > the fin you choose to experiment with, apply a thin layer of silicone over > it, then coat plaster over that to create a mother mold and finally pour > catalyzed polyurethane (80 A durometer or a little higher) into the female > mold. The result being a fleshy, muscle-like, resilient stabilizer that > can be adhered (and readhered) to the boards bottom surface with > commercial grade contact adhesives. Fins made this way usually have to be > a little thicker than if they were constructed of fiberglass and resin.>>> With the properly (balanced) setup, your board might tend to find a good > line before you do! But, bear in mind, they are not much for contemporary > surfings abrupt directional changes, tending to smooth everything out, > seeking the more simple (and primitive?) lines of speed. But, in certain > waves, this can be a completely fulfilling objective.>>> Hey, Magoo, all this stuff (and so much more) is just waiting there to be > played with… it isn`t some sort of sacred theology, either! We need only > open the door. http://sites.netscape.net/clarkliddle/index.html

Hey Dale - In regards to the keel fin template… I remember seeing some > keels that were brought over to California by Wayne Lynch and Nat Young in > the early 70s. The leading edge was concave to the tip (about 2/3 back) > followed by a concave trailing edge back to the base. The keel templates I > remember on the Lis fish designs had a convex leading edge and fairly > sraight vertical trailing edge. Are these (the latter) the type you are > referring to? John, I have no experience with the type of keel fin that Wayne and Nat used, my fins have primarily been 1/8" to 3/16" thin slab in various shapes, convex centrally/peaked foiled about 1" thick, conventionally foiled about 1/2" with peak and trailing edge at rear. When dual keels were used, the outer surface was foiled and the inner was usually flat. I ran them parallel and 90 degrees to the centerline of the test design, also toed in and tipped out in various amounts, positioned near the rails edge and as much as 3" in. Heights were in the 1 1/2" to 5" range, bases 8" to 18"; I came to prefer them with a fairing. They were made of fiberglass/resin/epoxy, microspheres, wood, laminated polyethylene, vinyl/vinyl resin, etc. attaching them to the running surface with contact adhesive, fin boxes, resin/epoxy and stainless screws tapped down into the center of the fin through the deck, much as George Greenough. I played with them on surfboards, kneeboards, bodyboards and paipos. I owe much to San Diegos (G&S?) Steve Seebold as an early influence. My general conclusions were that many of the keels I tried were excellent when used in long, powerful waves, felt very fast and secure, but were also a bit “tight”, resisting quick/sharp directional changes and lateral drifting (no surprise). In particular, on very short boards, the keels provided much longer turns and trimlines than were usually possible, linking distant sections, great for uncrowded point surf, but frustratingly restrictive in short, weak beachbreak. I never satisfied my curiousity with them, and am certain that there is more to be discovered, particularly in regards to long, thin and laterally flexible, shallow keel fins with their peak located in the rear third and having most of the base unattached, except for the front 25%. In this manner, much of the characteristic “stiffness” is eased because the long rudder is then free to bend horizontally when sideways pressure is applied, something impossible with a normal keel fin. Of course, the overall surfboard design being tested must be integrated with the keel, resulting in a serious investment of time and work. Depending on how one rides, the waves preferred and the type of surfcraft employed, keel fins remain a largely forgotten, yet, functional choice. Thanks for asking about this interesting, old subject. Dale

Hey Dale - In regards to the keel fin template… I remember seeing some > keels that were brought over to California by Wayne Lynch and Nat Young in > the early 70s. The leading edge was concave to the tip (about 2/3 back) > followed by a concave trailing edge back to the base. The keel templates I > remember on the Lis fish designs had a convex leading edge and fairly > sraight vertical trailing edge. Are these (the latter) the type you are > referring to? John, I have no experience with the type of keel fin that Wayne and Nat used, my fins have primarily been 1/8" to 3/16" thin slab in various shapes, convex centrally/peaked foiled about 1" thick, conventionally foiled about 1/2" with peak and trailing edge at rear. When dual keels were used, the outer surface was foiled and the inner was usually flat. I ran them parallel and 90 degrees to the centerline of the test design, also toed in and tipped out in various amounts, positioned near the rails edge and as much as 3" in. Heights were in the 1 1/2" to 5" range, bases 8" to 18"; I came to prefer them with a fairing. They were made of fiberglass/resin/epoxy, microspheres, wood, laminated polyethylene, vinyl/vinyl resin, etc. attaching them to the running surface with contact adhesive, fin boxes, resin/epoxy and stainless screws tapped down into the center of the fin through the deck, much as George Greenough. I played with them on surfboards, kneeboards, bodyboards and paipos. I owe much to San Diegos (G&S?) Steve Seebold as an early influence. My general conclusions were that many of the keels I tried were excellent when used in long, powerful waves, felt very fast and secure, but were also a bit “tight”, resisting quick/sharp directional changes and lateral drifting (no surprise). In particular, on very short boards, the keels provided much longer turns and trimlines than were usually possible, linking distant sections, great for uncrowded point surf, but frustratingly restrictive in short, weak beachbreak. I never satisfied my curiousity with them, and am certain that there is more to be discovered, particularly in regards to long, thin and laterally flexible, shallow keel fins with their peak located in the rear third and having most of the base unattached, except for the front 25%. In this manner, much of the characteristic “stiffness” is eased because the long rudder is then free to bend horizontally when sideways pressure is applied, something impossible with a normal keel fin. Of course, the overall surfboard design being tested must be integrated with the keel, resulting in a serious investment of time, money and work. Depending on how one rides, the waves preferred and the type of surfcraft employed, keel fins remain a largely forgotten, yet, functional choice. Thanks for asking about this interesting, old subject, John. Dale

In “The Seedling” movie, there’s a segment that shows Skip Frye discussing/shaping/riding a 12’ board. I daydream of riding that thing on an empty day at Waikiki.