Before you all start laughing, think about how this might relate to the Twinzer effect of adding forward fins ahead of the regular fins...
I just picked up 11 blanks yesterday and was playing with ideas; the first board I started laying out was a 5'11" traditional Fish then I looked over at the 6'6" Rocket Fish Twinzer that I just got back and another 7'0" 5 finned Bonzer in the racks and started wondering if anyone has ever thought to try putting two Bonzer fins ahead of the regular twin fins? I was thinking about going with Future Rasta Keels anyway, so I wonder what the addition of the Bonzer fins would be like? Preliminary dimensions on the Fish are 5'11" x 21"x 18 1/4" tail with a 10" swallow 5" deep. The rear fins are marked at 9 1/2" to the back of the box and 1 1/2" off the rail to compensate for the additional lenght of the Rasta Keels because they have a 6.79" base length.... Any thoughts from the rest of the world?
Not quite the same, but have you looked at herbs superchargers?? Search superchargers and see. I put them on my keel fish, and never took them off!!, Seemed to free it up, and even paddling felt like less drag. Probably try them on my little eggy type thing im nearly finished.
go for it, do it, you can put plugs in so if it doesnt go so well, least you can take em out and have options...do it...keen to see it come to life and hear reports....
I did 1 or two 6 finners ages ago, then got a not so friendly e-mail from some guy claiming he has full rights to 6 finned boards, and if I made them I owe him money.hahaha, nearly fell over, how can anyone even think that is realisitic in the wonderful world of surfboards ??? wonder how many emails SA sent out ....
Do not do it!!! You will have to endure constant ridicule in the parking lot “got enough fins” etc etc. as you struggle with the fact about how good they ride. I made my first “six shooter” over 10 yrs ago. They ride great can not give em away.
Thanks for all the replies so far and especially for that link to the one that the guy in the UK shaped, I liked his execution of his.. I even emailed him asking for his hindsight evaluation into his design and execution of it.. As for the Superchargers, I saw Herbs stuff on another thread I was interested in on the Inducted boards, which I actually did one of my own.
As for Ace's board, I like yours and don't give a whit to what the parking lot crowd thinks. You made me a 7'6" Zinger back in the mid 90's that people gave me odd looks whenever I carried it from the car to the waters edge, but I didn't care, the freaking board RIPPED and was one of my all time favorite boards EVER!!! I'm certain that onnvaters like the Campbell Brothers with their 5 finned Bonzers, Will Jobson with his Twinzer, Jeff Alexander with his Genesis design and even Simon Anderson with the Thruster had do deal with a bit of that garbage themselves.. I'm a firm believer in innovation even if it doesn't go along with the mainstream line of thinking..
Hell, I even went into talk Hydrodyamics with Tim Bessell a few weeks ago and got around to the topic of Inducted boards to which he replied he'd never seen or ridden one. I just so happened to have my 6'5" 6 channel inducted quad out in the car and he asked me to bring it in so he could look at it. After looking it over, he asked if HE could borrow it and try it out! (To me, that was one of the biggest compliments I'd ever had about my shaping). he gave it a ride and came back with some pretty positive things to say about it, but in hindsight, I think I should have made the design in a gunnier shape rather than more of a fun shape. (image below)
I like to try stuff that makes people think outside the existing envelope, and besides, who the heck wants to try and compete with "standard" designs that are cranked out in near absolute perfection by CAD machines these days? I can't compete with that so I don't even try...
I'm just so glad and happy that there are sites like Swaylocks that push the design to extreme's and that people such as you all get involved in healthy feedback, even if it isn't always good.. I appreciate everyone's idea's and help..
I'm definitely not laughing. In fact, I've been mulling over this same thing ever since Bruce Fowler (Deadshaper) wrote a post entitled something like "Quads are Quick" in the Industry section a few years back where he talked about experimenting with multi-multi-fin arrangements. Then Ace drops the occasional picture of his six-shooters and I'm frothing over the idea. Problem is I don't currently have the circumstances to pursue it.
Bottom line - ather than laugh at you, I'm rooting for you to do it. Of course, everyone has their own theories and approaches, depending on what they're trying to accomplish. Hopefully, Ace will share what he's learned already so nobody has to reinvent the wheel. (Hint hint, nudge nudge)
Ace's Six Shooter looked a lot like a Twinzer with a couple of rear quad fins on it. I'm certain that it does rip because I made a 6'4" 6 channel Twinzer Diamond Tail back in the mid 90's that was my daily rider. It was phenominal but when I added a very small glassed on single trailer fin, it smoothed out any negative traits that board had. However, I'm thinking more along the lines of adding Bonzer fins ahead of the main fins something like Tim Stafford's 6 finned Freaky Fish in the below attached image. I am just thinking more of a traditional Fish shape rather than a sharper nosed one like Tims.
“However, I’m thinking more along the lines of adding Bonzer fins ahead of the main fin”
We set a few up like that. Had a very predictable ride. Felt more like a single fin than a twin finnie type board. Some of the longboard guys liked em set up that way. They said they nose rode better. Had one guy ride some pretty healthy LJ cove with that set up.
My original thought process was adding small trailer fin to stabilize MY “Zinger” boards that were inspired by Will Jobsen’s Twinzers, to fix some problems the boards had. The six finners were just dividing the trailer fins and widening the tails. Simple.
I'm just throwing out questions here. Do with them what you wish.
I've noticed in the pictures I've seen that your trailers look like they are placed similar to how McKee recommends for his quad setups, a little further back and inboard. Your explanation sounds like you're approaching it with a similar purpose in mind, which would explain any apparent similarity. (Sorry if I'm over-generalizing). What's the closest you've ever gone with the six-fin cluster, and how did it feel?
How big are the various fins on the Yosemite Sam board? Actually, I know you've posted it before but what are the dimensions on that board, for the sake of reference?
How do you determine placement and tow-in for the six-shooter arrangement? I'm sure you tweak things for each individual, but do you have a kind of generic starting point for a given board size (If you want, we could just say a 5'8" fish for the sake of having a common example).
OK, I'll stop there. Hope I'm not hijacking. I think this is all pretty relevent to the original post.
I have covered all this before. My writing skills are limited. I will answer what seem like new questions. I do not want to take over Bob’s discussion. I am just trying to encourage him or anyone to go for it if you have an idea. You are going to make mistakes but as you fix your mistakes and make the board work you will realize that there are really no set rules and the field is wide open to to try new ideas.
as a reference the board is 6’ long 21" wide.
I do not know “Mckee” never met him or talked to him. I arrived at what I am doing in the relative obscurity of OB’s reefs and beaches. I came at my quad fin placement backwards. I was making the six finners than Quads became popular so I dropped the lead fins and kept the the rest the same. Again simple. I am not claiming I did this first or that first. I have just followed my ideas. The fact that others have arrived at similar ideas in different parts of the fishbowl is pretty cool I think.
I usually based my six finners around 16" and wider tails.
I think the basic thing is to view the fins as “Channelers” as much as board “direction directers”.
For me it is really more a visual thing. If something looks right it has a good chance of working. This is why I mostly post, and like to see, pictures of designs rather than work off numbers.
Every once and awhile I “shave” one down to see how my hulls work as a single fin. Simple clean functional. “Albert you only need one fin” Bradley Buben RIP
Do not do it!!! You will have to endure constant ridicule in the parking lot "got enough fins" etc etc. as you struggle with the fact about how good they ride. I made my first "six shooter" over 10 yrs ago. They ride great can not give em away.
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Well let me be the first to say anything you want to shape or try I'm willing to ride!
Any board you make that you can't get rid of I will ride to the best of my abilities!
This is a great thread, just awesome. The reason I love swaylocks. I couldn't pay enough to cover the value of what I'm exposed to here.
Love this quote: "I like to try stuff that makes people think outside the existing envelope, and besides, who the heck wants to try and compete with "standard" designs that are cranked out in near absolute perfection by CAD machines these days? I can't compete with that so I don't even try... "
Ace (or anybody else for that matter), don't worry about hijacking this thread, I love where it's going and I always love it when there gets to be a little bit of a respectable (ie:RESPECTABLE) debate involved.. It helps me view things from other peoples standpoints and quite often helps me take off the blinders that I sometimes find myself wearing. Go ahead, fire away! I've always loved your work and look up to you and others who do this professionally for a living rather than some schmo like me cutting blanks in my garage working under crappy lighting and really really bad equipment...
Besides, it's necessary for me mainly because I can no longer surf my own boards because my body is paying the price for a wild youth. I'm disabled now and even though I've been throwing a little over a grand a month into making boards, I have to rely on others to ride my stuff and give me HELPFUL feedback rather than "Dude, that board is SICK!!!" (which seems to be the phrase most commonly of the new Millennium with the younger surf crowd).
I'm going to cut a new template this evening and I'm going 6' rather than 5'11" and will probably bring the width down at least half an inch and draw out the nose a little more curvature in the tail so it's not quite so traditional fish looking. I might be going the wrong way with that kind of thinking but it seems to be where my head is at. BUT one thing that I'm still trying to get figured out is the fin placement, my original line of thought was to put the rear main twin fins at 9 1/2" up from the tail but thinking that each Bonzer fin should have a little breathing room with about 1 1/2" between them, it seems that the whole fin cluster is moving too far forward, negating the need for the Bonzer fins altogether. If I wanted to keep them at 9 1/2" up, a Twinzer setup would make more sense it seems.. I've got a Bonzer in the garage that I shaped YEARS ago that I can go by but of course its a 5 fin board with a pretty gunny outline, so it's not really much help there except for the spacing on the bonzer fins (which creates a NEW problem, I was thinking about putting FCS plugs in for the Bonzer fins rather than having them glassed on like the one in the garage, I wonder how much space is needed now to install plugs while trying to retain a nice concave between them?)...
This one's got me stumped but I really want to do it... Hell, I might even add a couple Induction holes in it to feed the heads of the Bonzer channels... Hehehehehe... I think the glasser is gonna hate me for this one! Speaking of which, Ace, who does your glassing now? I saw Doug over at Superior doing one of your Zingers the last few times I've been in there, but if I recall correctly, when you shaped my 7'6" Zinger way back when, your shop used to be next to or near Bob Mitzven's old place near the airport and I think you were using the same glasser as him... Doug's been doing good work for me but maybe I should give him a break...
PS. this is also for ACE, you mentioned developing your designs around the reefs of OB which I'm CERTAIN includes Sunset Cliffs... I used to surf Needles Eye once in a while but never knew why they called it that. I ran across a picture taken back in the early 's that I wanted to share with you since you might have been like me and never knew why.. Check this out...
For those who have been following this thread all along (and for those of you who arrived late, welcome, chime in anytime); Since my earlier post this afternoon, I went ahead and redesigned where I was going with this board, drew it out on a paper template and transfered it to Masonite then cut it out. Then of course I just had to jump in and lay it out on the blank, drew it out and cut out the basic shape. It's now 6'0" x 20 3/4" wide (right at the midline) x 14 1/4" nose x 16 1/4" tail (the wings are at 12 1/4" up so the tail width jumps to 17 1/2" on the outside of the wings) and the swallow is 11 1/8" wide at the tips and 4 1/2" deep butt crack. I still have the twin fins drawn out at 9 1/2" up from the tail because that was where I originally had them, BUT waiting on input from you all..
Earlier, I took some basic measurements from the 7'0" 5 finned Bonzer I had lying around and the front of the 2nd Bonzer fins were really REALLY crowding the midline... Gonna have to rethink the use of standard Bonzer fins and I see now why Ace went with the layout he did on his Six Shooter... This board might just end up as a Twinzer if I can't solve this....
But just to whet yer whistles, here's where I am right now...
Well, I couldn't figure out the fin placement for this project so I went ahead and finished it up as a quad.. There is a kid who I did a Fish for earlier in the summer that wants me to make him a 6'6" mini gun that I am going to talk him into letting me do a twin finned Bonzer so it'll be a 6 finner.. I am also thinking about installing a couple of those induction holes at the heads of the Bonzer channels just to piss off the glasser..
Below are the finished pics of the blank as it turned out. The pics don't really show the bottom contours very well, in some of the pics they don't show up at all but in one, (and because of the flash/shadows) it looks greatly exaggerated. It's a single concave going into a venturi channel with a but of vee right in the middle.. I'm pretty happy with the way it turned out.. It's off to the glasser this afternoon for a quote, BUT I'm kinda pissed at the glasser because the 2 boards I have in there now were supposed to be done yesterday (the THIRD time he said they'd be done and weren't) and on one of them, he put the center fin about an inch further up (it's a glassed on fin) than I wanted.... Any suggestions as to a new glasser in the San Diego area that people have had good luck with? Oh well, it was a board made from a screwed up blank that I'd overshaped earlier plus the fins were something I had lying around on the workbench..
