Heating additive f really helps reduce zits. For a final finish I heat all three componenets, because if you heat only the additive F it re crystallizes as soon as it hits the cold hardener.
While I don’t know exactly what reaction is involved in the formation of the crystals, you will probably change the composition of the solution by filtering them out. I think the best thing would be to attempt to redisolve the crystals. Maybe Greg has commented on this before. Honestly, the additive F doesn’t really seem that necessary to me and it drasticaly increases the fumes. Maybe because San Diego has low humidity.
I think you’ve hit it here. I was also thinking that was my problem. I’ve finished my gloss coat and had quite few less but there were still a few of the bumps. I hit my gloss with my heat gun way more than I wanted to which may have melted the additive F. I had just started using a new can of the stuff. It arrived in a quart can but was only a pint inside, so may be old stuff. I’ll try heating it some first but it seems like it would evaporate quick. Besides I’m not big on putting this stuff in my microwave. Don’t want my food tasting like this additive F. I’ll get a photo this afternoon the show the bumps on the deck. Already sanded the bottom.
The organic solvent that is the principle carrier for “Additive F” is one that cyrstalizes at about 60 degree fahenheit. Some solvent freeze at a relatively high temperature.
To get a good consistent result simply get a container about 8 inches deep and put enough hot water in it so that the measured amount of resin and hardener can sit in it for about 10 minutes or so and heat up. Do the same with the container of “F”. Before you add the “F” to your hardener shack it up. Mix the “F” with the hardener then mix this in with the resin. The board will be slightly cooler than the resin mix so spread it our fairly quickly on the cloth and proceed with you lamination process. If the board has been in a warm spot prior to this process and is at about 70 degrees or so you resin will maintain a nice viscosity. If your board is warm the epoxy cure will be accelerated. If it’s cooler than 55 degrees you on the edge of failure as the resin will thicken somewhat and cure very slowly. In warmer conditions it’s not a bad idea to mix a little less material initially and continue with a second batch on the laps unless of course you have lots of experience laminating.
Temperature control is the secret
to managing the epoxy animal.
Aloha, Rich
Rich; xylene, which is the carrier solvent in additive f, freezes at -13 F.
The actual additive is a chemical with low solubility in organic solvents. There are other solvents that Greg could have used to formulate it, but these may not have been compatible with the epoxy systems. Heat will help these solids go back in to solution…and even then it’s more likely a finely dispersed suspension rather than an actual solution. I’d advise you to warm your Ad. F. every time before use if you live anywhere the temperatures drop below 60F. Xylenes aren’t a particularly great solvent as far as dissolving organic compounds.
My guess is that the active ingredient is a quarternary ammonium salt, but I haven’t popped it on the HPLC-MS to confirm this nor am I likely to. Regardless, it works.
If you got bubbles, seal your blank. The heatgun trick is the goods for hotcoating and glossing, but it’s meant to be done with quick passes back and forth to reduce surface tension and allow the bubbles to pop (I have a friend that uses a blowtorch!); not to actually heat a zone up. Cheater coat works great; pretty easy to time it right…if you get the timing right on the cheater, you can get away with a very thin layer and still avoid any fisheyes.
Didja leave your mixed resin in the cup while you were fudging with your logos? Get it outta the cup…right away…if you only need an ounce to get your logo down, then only mix an ounce; mix the rest of the batch for the lam afterwards. Large masses generate heat as they polymerize and yeah; it’ll go to snot in no time if left in the cup.
In my opinion, there are other resins out there that are better for hotcoating and glossing if you have time to be patient, but RR remains my favorite for lamming, having now tried 5 different brands.
p.s.; pumps are the devil. do yourself a favour; find out the specific gravities of the resins you’re using, buy yourself a kitchen scale and mix on weight rather than volume. rarely are people equipped to measure accurate volumes of viscous liquids.
Aloha Punasurf:
Did you have a chance to work with Fiberglass Hawaii 2 to 1 epoxy yet? I find it really similar to PE resin. I buy a 7.5 gal. kit for about $320 and I usually get it with one gallon of fast hardener and 1.5 gallons of slow hardener. Both the slow and fast hardener have a lot of working time once you get it out of the pot. It dries very clearly and bubbles were not an issue.
I do my sanding/fill coats with epoxy and my gloss coats with FGH PE finish resin.
D
Quote:
My guess is that the active ingredient is a quarternary ammonium salt, but I haven’t popped it on the HPLC-MS to confirm this nor am I likely to.
Someone told me its paraffin wax emulsified in xylene. Would be interesting to know what it actually is. Looks like there is wax in it.
GreatWhite, you nailed it, on all counts. Get a scale, mix just what you need, and go easy on the heat gun.
But, what epoxy do you like for gloss and lam? I use RR for all. thx
Funny, I’ve found the RR stuff pretty idiot proof. My mixing is anything but accurate. 2 dixie cups to 1 dixie cup. Either 2,4 or 6 oz cups. mix it all together, and throw in a cap full of additive F. Seems to work fine. Now I’m working in a stable 70-75 degrees mind you. I use the fast hardner, and my work time is about 15 to 25 mins. You won’t have any zits if you get the additive f smooth. I wouldn’t use epoxy for gloss, because it never polishes out like poly gloss, so why bother. Use a spray instead, something like UPOL clear coat.
If your working in a garage that’s cool I would recommend getting a space heater. Heat the garage, board, epoxy all to the same temp. Spend the time to warm the place up, your glassing will be that much easier.
If it’s hotter than 85, just learn to work faster. sweat is always good for epoxy, make neat looking fish eyes.
I have heard a few people mention the U-POL clear coat. The problem is that this stuff is pretty toxic; the aerosol can version is better (only goggles and a VOC cartridged mask, but pricier), the stuff you put in a spray gun requires not only ventilation, but an air fed suit/mask with face plate and full coverage of body; basically a space suit. … the safety sheet has quite a list of solvents.
Is there any kind of clear coat out there that will give a good glossy finish to an epoxy board easier than epoxy itself, but isn’t a hazmat?
I am trying to get an epoxy gloss coat to come out nice, but am still wondering if there is an easier way, without installing a full out paint booth in my shop. (which doesn’t have the room for it anyway)
Thanks.
It is idiot proof, but I like the precision of a scale. Saves $ by letting me use over my mix buckets. I don’t go gloss either, but I don’t really miss it.
I’ve been using MinWax clear acrylic lacquer from home depot. Hard, clear, sprays easy in my gun, water clean up, cheap, low calorie, less filling, no transfat. You’ll need a minimum of 320 grit to avoid scratches showing through.
Aloha Uncle,
No, I didn’t even know they made a 2:1 until it was mentioned on this post. I don’t think my epoxy was the problem though. I am convinced there was a problem with the additive F. Here is a photo of the final gloss coat. I did this before I figured out where the trouble was coming from. I am pondering the idea of using poly for hot and gloss, but it seems I heard about problems with chemical bonding. How long have you been using the epoxy resins with the poly resins on top? Has it ever chipped off on impact?
Johan,
There are a few ways you could try to go for a gloss without the time-consuming parade of grits and compounds to get the epoxy to shine. I have used Krylon’s Crystal Clear Acrylic in a spray can, but it is expensive at around $5US a can. I liked the results, though. I sanded my ‘gloss coat’ to 220 to get the bumps out and clean up the tape apron line, then I sprayed it with the Krylon; great finish out of the can, but not as good as wetsanding and polishing epoxy. It has held up well, no chipping or peeling so far. I used 2 cans on a 4 ft quad fin paipo. Benny uses a similar product, also an acrylic spray, check out this site:
http://www.aervoe.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=3&idproduct=62
It is less expensive than the Krylon, and it seems to be close to the same product. I am going to give it a try soon, mainly for finishing plywood fins after sanding the fillcoat.
I have not tried it yet, but Perfection Varnish from Interlux is a 2-part polyurethane that is made to be brushed on, and is supposed to produce incredible results. Checkit out at
under ‘Varnishes’
Also a review of it at:
http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop28.htm
The product he uses on the website (Interthane Plus) is now called Perfection Varnish.
There is also System 3’s WR-LPU polyurethane coat.
http://www.systemthree.com/p_wr_lpu.asp
In essence, it is a water reducible form of UPOL, so less VOCs. I have a quart of this, but have not used it yet, it will go on my next board, to see how it works. There are several threads about it in the archives. Also, I’ll be brushing it on since my spray technique sucks, so I’ll probably be wetsanding and polishing it as well, but hopefully I’ll be starting with a finer grit than when I start wetsanding with a normal epoxy gloss.
The acrylic sprays are cheaper, but I would bet they are not as durable as the polyurethanes. The safest one to use (for your lungs) seems to be the S3 WR-LPU, and the most protection will probably come from the Interlux product (I would like to try it sometime). The Interlux and S3 WR-LPU are similar in price, above $100US for a gallon of the stuff. If you want to use your spray equipment, the WR-LPU sprays well (check the threads), the aervoe product comes in gallon cans for around $46US, or you could use a floor sealer in your sprayer, like Future from SC Johnson.
I don’t think I would try to spray the Interlux product without a clean air source, but it is made to brush on anyway.
Hope this helps,
JSS
Is the aervoe product brushable? Or must it be sprayed?
Greg,
They have it in gallon cans, so I imagine it could be thinned and brushed, like Future. Here’s the site for the gallons:
http://www.aervoe.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=3&idproduct=546
And, after reading the tech sheet again, yes, it is brushable, and without thinning. For spray equipment, they recommend their own thinner (of course) made of xylene and acetone in a 75/25 mix.
http://www.aervoe.com/techdata/1117.pdf
Here is the MSDS as well. Basically, if you do this outside, no respirator is needed for brushing, and an organic vapor respirator if done indoors with adequate ventilation. For spray, a particulate filter is needed, and a vapor cartridge if not outdoors.
Hope this helps,
JSS
PS - Off subject, but I remember your rail banding and cutlap tools posted earlier. Do you have any special gadgets/jigs you use to rout finboxes?