Whadayathink? Fishin’ this summer for albacore, a couple of friends and I were lucky enough to boat a few of these amazing creatures. To see one of the fish will leave any waterman with a lasting impression. The vertical and horizontal profile of these fellows is a study in hydrodynamic perfection. There is hardly any fin area on these sea bullets. The fish can retract it’s dorsal completely from water flow by pulling it into a depression. The pectorals are like miniature wings, are extremely thin and narrow and fit into depressions along the side of the fish to reduce resistance when making straight away speed. The tapered trailing edges are set with a serious of finlettes at measured intervals. It would seem these are arranged to minimize turbulence. The tail like the pectorals is narrow thing, has no arc in its leading edge set at approximately 60 degrees off vertical and the profile is very close to that of neatly cut small sliver of pie. What can this have to do with surfboards you ask, to the casual observer nothing – to a curious waterman and fin maker everything. Thoughts: Fin area, foil and wide fin profile generate turbulence and interfere with straight-line speed. Symmetrically foiled fins don’t slow a surfboard down as much as ones that are asymmetrically foiled. And center fin creates turbulence and interferes with rail-to-rail changes, which means it give lateral stability but also slows the board down and blocks (mimumizes) board lean during turns. Board lean during turns is also affected by rail configuration. Hard rail less lean, soft ones allow more. Drive and lift created by asymmetrical fins is what makes a modern shortboard thruster set-up work. These fin set-ups have all kinds of drag and drive going on that project the board while it is moving in an arc. They also cause the board to stall when it is going in a straight line. The three-fin system is not one that likes to go straight. For that matter shortboard surfing is not about going straight very much at all. Rail fins are set in the board to oppose each other and thus facilitate radical turning maneuvers, which is anything but in imitation of this pelagic traveler who can go faster than any surfboard probably ever will. What does the fin maker do create a system in imitation of this mystery of evolution, the albacore? With the modern surfing trend as they are, longboard nostalgia & shortboard shredding, why bother with attempting to make a surfboard fin system as free of turbulence as possible? Why try to keep the surfboard directionally stable with the water flowing along the bottom configuration and rails of the board as unencumbered as possible allowing the board to do the liftng and driving? Why would anyone want to surf this way? Would it be good to know more what the surfboard itself is doing and get a free gliding feeling and use the surfboard for drive rather than the fin or fins? Is it possible to make an imitation of the albacore’s hydrodynamic perfection in a fin system? My version is called “Alamode.” I’ve surfed it on my 8’0”, 8’8”, & 9’5” and man is it fun. What would your version look like? Back to the fin shop, Rich
What youre doing is FUN. But if youre serious about fin design, STUDY EVERYTHING you can about George Greenough`s proven fin work. He was right there- several DECADES ago. Why re-invent a proven 40 year old wheel? The rarified combination of equipment, waves, athletic skill and genius which Greenough used to discover and refine his ideas were his alone, for that time period. He himself has progressed beyond all that. The man who developed and demonstrated the radical performance of the modern high aspect ratio fin is also a living, functional testimony for surfing without any fins! Why not ring him up and have a good chat? One of the reasons that surfing design moves so painfully slow is that most “innovators” are not willing to learn from the past and then carry it forward. Instead they have to personally repeat the same things over and over again with their own little tweaks and then attach their moniker, as if the idea somehow originated from them.
Here is an interesting interactive look at different wing designs. Click the link below and look on the right side of the page and click wing designs. your gonna need flash 5 to view the animation. There are 4 different wing foils that look just like fin foils on surfboards. Check it out! I found it VERY INTERESTING! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/xplanes/airborne.html#
I`m offended by your statements, as should be any right thinking American. Take your fantasies about fin design back to the land of OZ where they belong.
R.S.C. I realize I’m only getting started but I didn’t just fall off the back of the turnip wagon either. Tell me specifically, my friend, where was George decades ago? Maybe there is nothing new under the sun but the continue to be new variations on given themes. Computers and Surfboard design has come a long way in the last three or four decades, and certainly Greenough has done some of the most significant things in fin design and they have come a way as well. Consider that Groege though he continues to be an big time innovator is not very available, sort of like God prefering to keep to himself and the task at hand. but none the less I’m sure he’ll be the first to admit there is always room for innovation and new ideas. Your words, “The man who developed and demonstrated the radical performance of the modern high aspect ratio fin is also a living, functional testimony for surfing without any fins!” Can you explain what you mean. This makes no sense to me at all. The sentences seems to be in complete contradiction of itself. I am in complete agreement with you in you statement about learning from the past. Nothing could be more true. I’ve ridden, observed and tried plenty of the the old school stuff. It’s still being ridden because fun counts! In the end it’s not about reinventing the wheel. It’s about better tires. No Worries, Rich
.go daddy GO riff on that albacore reveerse engineering… colaborate innovate lest we be called hopless squares fly that excess fiber dust heaven ward in the name oe the pagan god of surf fun and communion with this alien life form we call albacore the Ahi stablizers not only contract but also pivot from a " toothpick " sized /shaped bone attatched to the skeletal structure or is it cartalage?..we are the Inheritors of the aquired Knowledge take it and run …studing at the feet of A master puts you in line behind the master… do a inovative solo …rif it daddy… all we owe is to go beyond the contemp…send your colaborators a fin…oooooooooooI for one cant wait we are the future wheel … ambrose…KJAZ playing on the stream
Jason, Thanx for the links, Brah. Mahalo, Rich
Travis, I hope that this thread will generate some innovative ideas and approaches to performance. Unfortunately not everyone is interested working on the edge. Many prefer the smooth glide on the soft shoulder of yesterday’s pillow. If that’s what works for you go for it, but remember if we leave things up to nay sayers where will we end up? Mahalo, Rich
No problem Halcyon, That really helped me visualise the waterflow around different types of foils and i thought others might find it usefull as well. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/xplanes/airborne.html#
Tell me specifically, my friend, where was George decades ago? Where was George decades ago? One example: By 1964 Bob McTavish had spotted Greenough surfing Angourie NSW, doing high speed s-turns, long beyond vertical tracks, roundhouse cutbacks, deep tube riding, etc. He was using a repertoire and personalized equipment that would be considered respectably advanced even for today.>>>Your words, “The man who developed and demonstrated the radical performance of the modern high aspect ratio fin is also a living, functional testimony for surfing without any fins!” Can you explain what you mean. This makes no sense to me at all. The sentences seems to be in complete contradiction of itself. His use of the inflatable surf mat for over 50 years.>>>Consider that Groege though he continues to be an big time innovator is not very available, sort of like God prefering to keep to himself and the task at hand. George Greenough: 011 61 266 877090>>>It’s still being ridden because fun counts! In the end it’s not about reinventing the wheel. It’s about better tires. Of course the lowest common denominator always wins over the masses. But we must never forget that there are different levels of fun.
speaking of which, a friend and I recently saw an Alex Knost fin(at least it had his name on it) which is unmistakebly a copy of a Greenough fin.interesting for sure…
I posted a little of this some time ago: the tuna is one of the speediest fish because it has learned to use the swirls/eddies/vortices that come off it’s undulating body by timing tail fin movements to work with the eddies rather than have the eddies simply cause drag. I believe the research was done at MIT and can dig it up tomorrow but the jist of the revelation is that tuna are not only fast down the line but are even more amazingly fast through turns. Starting to sound useful. Well to a tuna it’s a matter of survival. They actually can initiate turns by pivoting around the eddies their bodies create. The claudal fin while very efficient is just half the story. Yellow fin is good raw with a little soyu. Rob Olliges
Your words, “The man who developed and demonstrated the radical performance of the modern high aspect ratio fin is also a living, functional testimony for surfing without any fins!” Can you explain what you mean. This makes no sense to me at all. The sentences seems to be in complete contradiction of itself. His use of the inflatable surf mat for over 50 years. — Rich, Among other things, George is credited with the development of deep, flexible high aspect ratio fins. He demonstrated/documented his ideas through some very powerful, fast and efficient surfing… both on the wave
s face, and inside the tube. George has also dedicated most of his 6+ decades of life on this earth to the advancement of mat surfing. In contrast to Georges kneeboards, advanced surf mats have no stabilizing fins. So, Id say theres a bit of an enigma in all this, but no real contradiction. The more we know, the less we know…
Rich Small little steps and advancements over time account for big changes. Refinements, no matter how small can make big changes. I m sure that you know the effect of changing fin position or adding a little V can make a board feel a hole lot different. Keep at it, most of us appriciate what you are doing.
I saw a photo somewhere of a “RoboFish” - a robot fish used by MIT or one of those places. They were trying to figure out how it was able to swim so fast. A google search or two might be able to access some information.
Here I go again.Same old stuff for the last 40 years.Why do all surfboard fins have to look like an appendage of a fish?Twenty five years ago I epoxied a small coke bottle on my board for a joke and it actually worked really well.Why don’t these so called fin designers check into something other than “fins”.Don’t give me the “evolution…perfect form…deal” its a surfboard not a fish.
I can somewhat agree with what cleanlines said. A fish has a few things going for it in that it can pivot or flex its whole body into a turn and can adjust the angle of attack of its fins. On the other hand I have seen and tried many odd/funky looking shaped fins from rectangular shapes to boomerang shapes to the Cheyne Horan star fin to forward raked fins and didnt like any of them. The traditional shaped fins just felt better…whatever that means. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/xplanes/airborne.html#
Since a fish angles its fins to turn, could a surfboard fin be designed to pivot or change its angle in response to the water flow pressure exerted on it.
Its the most fucked up idea ever: fin "innovators" making dead things from a copy of a living thing. Tuna fins, dolphin fins. Theyre supposed to be active- not fiberglass and injection molded plastic. Such grossly misdirected energy. No wonder theres hardly any real design progression in the "surf world": the monkeys are running the phuggin zoo! Ill check back in another 10 years to see if anything “new” has happened yet.
The shape/rake of a marine animal’s fin suits the surfer well because it can automatically shed debris like seaweed; boogie boarders; fishing line, etc. A dolphin’s fin is mostly connective tissue which is both rigid and pliable. The pectoral fins play a major role in steering and can be altered with finger-like bones. The dorsal fin is mostly for stability. Dolphin propulsion comes mostly from a horizontal tail fluke. A lot of variables to play around with as we consider designing control systems for surfing. I think only a few of the possibilities the dolphin (just one marine animal) presents have been explored in surf vehicle designs. That’s why we still look to animals. Fini, Rob Olliges