ok ok sorry to bring up again...have checked archives but i cant seem to find where this info might be located...
ive followed jc's video (for board#2) and also pravda surfs video...ive kinda come up with my own rail shaping process based on both these videos.
essentially, ive done the deck with 2 bands at 2" and 4" similar to JC, and have marked rail thickness to give me a depth. I have planed the bands, and surformed the bumps, however... I now have the deck looking ok (i think?) but i still have the 'squared' rail edges (from way back at the start when I trued up cutting the template!), not as thick as they were due to my band depth guides. is it at this poiint that I should be rounding this last section off (perhaps with screen) being careful not to touch the very outer edge where the orginal template lies!
it seems form his video that JC cuts the bands, blends the bands with planer/surform, but has still goT a square rail edge (the thickness based on his depth guides)...he then seems to use the screen to round this very outer edge down!???
could post a photo if this helps my query/explanation!!!!
some great tips/ideas coming in here...tape on the outline edge...sounds good wil try.
are you guys indicating that its a case of bringing both the deck and bottom edge of the rail together, creating the profile of the rail itself? im curious, I have used the FRED tool on the bottom (bisecting 2 X 30 degree angles as JC does) but if I start to plane/surform the bottom side of the rail up to meet the deck, wont I lose this edge created by FRED? Does this matter?
“Hi - The final blending is touchy and a place where it is easy to distort your outline.”
John is quite right. But if you started with a perfectly trued outline at the very beginning and kept doing only long strokes throughout the shaping process (i.e. from tail to nose and nose to tail) it should have stayed true to this point. Whether you use sand paper with or without a foam sanding pad or a screen, keep those long strokes, applying equal pressure all along. Just change the angle of attack to follow the rail line as you move along.
outline is true im actually quite happy with the outline and template itself.
my main query i guess is once id planed rail bands the outer most band was only as deep as my depth navigation marks that i marked on the square edge of the blank (the square edge that i trued up after cutting out the template) ...
and the bottom curve of the rail was kept fairly low (I didnt want to bring this bottom edge up and around the rail itself...i am of the opinion that the bottom edge should stay lowish and square through the back 3rd of the board> fairly common i think!)
do i blend these two edges 1.bottom edge of outer band... down to the...2.bottom edge under the rail- basically rounding off the square section between these two marks?
thanks heaps for your help, and time trying to decipher my explanation!
If you’ve got a thick rail, and a short, round tuck, you’re going to end up with a very low rail apex. To keep the apex where you want, you have to bring both curves together - the top rail curve and the bottom rail curve. If you create a tuck curve under the rail that’s not round… that’s elliptical… you can keep the rail thick and have the apex where you want it. Might sound comlicated, but it’s not. If you used a Fred Tool, you will likely have a round tuck curve, because the tool takes off the same amount of material unless you intentionally do more passes along one bevel or the other… which you can, and should, if you’re after an elliptical/asymmetrical tuck curve.
Blending the bands: For me, I blend the majority of the material off with the planer, then surform, then soft block with 60 or 80 grit. When I start getting close, I pull the paper with on hand, and feel the shape under the paper with the other, as somebody said earlier.
Here's how I was taught to approach the rail, after getting it as close as possible with planer. Do the bottom first, just blending the bands and getting the basic shape you want. Then move to the deckside and work on the upper part of the rail, the ''crown''. Only after all of that is blended do you start on the lower portion of the bands, and the template band. Wrapping around the whole rail is at (almost) the very end. Final step is flipping it back over and fine-tuning the bottom rail shape and edge.
The main point is the seperation of ''upper'' and ''lower'' rail shape on the deckside. Don't go at the whole thing all at once. 50/50 rails or pinched neutrals require slightly different techniques, the above is mainly for modern rail shapes.
you dont want to use a screen to shape your rail - only to clean it up and fine tune it. if you start pulling your screen while the rail is still sqaure, you will just get a square rail with rounded edges. use you planer (if you are good!) or sureform and/or sandingblock to give the rough curve you want you rail shape to be. i like to use 40 grit at first - lighter grits dont take enough material off per stroke and you can wind up scrubbing and get your rails all lumpy. one trick i have is a piece of 60 grit cut in a circle that is folded in half and glued together to stay that way. cup it in your hands after you have your rail shape roughed out with planer/sureform/sandingblock and run your hand over the rail - it really gives you an intimate feel of the rail and you can cut less/more in the areas you want with subtle changes in pressure and angle - then hit it with the screen last to clean it up. wow that came out kind of risque ....... anyways thats how i do it!
just a tip......if your worried about puttin flat spots on your outline, run some 1/8" wide tape around your apex, then you can blend the last bands , top and bottom , with the screen
All I shape is lightweight EPS, but I guess I've done enough that I don't have to take special precautions. One of the benefits of being old, haha!
Still a great tip for the OP. If he follows the steps I outlined he'll have a very small tapered template band left before he starts wrapping screen or paper all the way around the rail. Your piece of tape will protect the last bit of that until the very final parts of the process.
I've been having trouble visualizing how the rails are supposed to end up and been aprehensive to accidentally cut into the squared off cut out shape so I poster painted the squared rail edge so I could see how the approach was going, similar idea to the tape method of not hitting the rail apex. Works good so far, I can see more clearly how things are going and can see confidently the original cut out foam.
That would let you see the taper in the template band (template band is Barnfield's term, and a good one). I'd be worried about getting all the paint off, there actually should be a tiny bit left when you're done.
That's another cool idea to protect that area though....
The cheap poster paint, $1.99 1/2 Qrt. @ craft store, is acting very similar to chaulk, perfect. I'm using off white paint on light blue xps, the chaulky paint is disapperaing with the slightest touch of sanding screen. Color smear not a problem on this one. Testing is fast using a blow dryer to quick dry the paint. A brighter white would've been more pleasing on this job than off white.
Hi - The final blending is touchy and a place where it is easy to distort your outline. Assuming the outline is good, just keep removing the edges of your bands. I try to blend the top and bottom so they meet right at the outline edge. After the rough shape is obtained, one method is to use a screen backed by a soft foam pad - upholstery foam or 'egg crate' foam padding. A screen held by the edges and dragged along the edges helps remove any remaining high spots. Some guys wrap the rail with their hand pressing the screen against the foam while pulling the screen with the other hand. Ideally your top and bottom bands should blend right at the rail apex without distorting your outline.
i can see why not to touch the outline. think ill sort some screen and soft foam (upholstery easy to get) and once ive got my bands to correct depth, finish off with foam/screen combo.
I've never seen or used a fred tool, but I assume it cuts a constant bevel on the bottom edge. That should be a tapered band instead, so IMO you should carefully blocksand (not surform) what you have into two tapered bands on bottom before you screen or sand. To preserve the edge, don't wrap screen/paper all the way onto bottom. If you inadvertently lose the edge, a slight blocksand flat on the bottom will return it. Don't flat-spot your rail rocker when you do this, though.
It sounds like you're getting a good understanding of what to do, time to go for it! Just remember the rail is shaped by the planer or block bands, the screen is just to blend and clean up. The slight square spot left by the template band blends right in when paper or screen is wrapped. One more tip, don't cut your screen/paper into narrow strips, at least until you get a bunch of boards under your belt. Bigger pieces will tend to cut truer when bent into the radius of the rail..
You should have tapered bands, Fred Tool or not. You change the pressure to cut wider/narrower bands. All the Fred Tool does is give you a consistent angle of cut. That’s it.
So… the bands cut with the Fred Tool have to be blended together with eachother, the template band, the deck bands, and along certain lengths of rail, with the bottom. So yes, you will lose the edge you’re talking about. But if you wrap the paper or screen around the rail, it will follow the curve you roughed out with the tool. That’s why it’s important to get the width of your Fred bands (bottom rail tuck curve) correct. This takes some visualization and planning.