Another shark attack , Troncones

General Discussion
21

It really makes you think about how many times we just go surfing and are not prepared for the worst case scenerio. I have surfed Troncones a couple times on my way back from Nexpa and Hua Hua. After surfing those places I always feel like I am safe and close to civilization in Troncones. I guess it is still Mexico and you could probably die on the beach within view of a hospital if you can not get there yourself.

I did have to hike a couple of miles once on what I thought was a sprained ankle, turned out to be broken after going to surf at a reef between Cambria and Cayucos. Good thing we never got a major gash from a board or fin. I personally do not worry about the shark thing too much. Way too many other hazards in the water, on the beach, on the way to the beach, but I will get out of the water if I see anything or even have a bad feeling, especially here in SLO county. Like Solana Beach, Avila was thought by most of us here on the central coast to be our safest beach.

22

Outstanding Ryan !

Yes, just as you described…

…Must of hurt something awfully, though…

…Something I definitely wouldNOT recommend doing…

For me…

It was a split-second decision .

The victIm was in Neuro-shock with the ticker in fib.,(due to booby-trap).

It broke just about every bone in his chest,but he survived ,and resides in Montana to this day.

…Doc and others here, have some great, sound advice and are more in the ballpark of up-to-date txs and materials.

We did forget one ol’ way of stoppin’ the bledin’…

…Slap some iron on it !

H

23

Wow Herb! That’s a friggin’ genius, decision. Nice move doesn’t begin to describe it. Sound like a little improvise, adapt, and overcome.

And yeah, ouch. A broken chest must hurt like hell, but considering the alternative, it was probably the best pain he ever felt.

24

He still keeps in touch w/ me.

Went hunting w/ him about 10 yrs. ago.

Heck of a nice guy.

On the lighter side(I think ?)

A dust off chopper ret. to the firebase in Central Am. w/ a multi-gunshot victim…

…The Medic/Devil Doc on board, had stuffed bandanas,socks,and other odd and conventional dressings/coags. in the wounds to contain the bleeding…

You know what ?

It worked…

Never even heard of anything like that before.

The D.D. claimed it was out of desperation and a split decision.

Go with your instincts…sometimes,that’s all you got to go with.

H

25

and now mexican authorities are killing any shark in sight.

brilliant.

26

http://www.break.com/index/surfing-with-a-great-white-shark.html we should train all the sharks to do this

27

Herb- you are my hero!!!awesome shit dude…

28

in my vaque memories of wonderful southeast asia, i recall hearing many tales of "quick and dirty first aid’ that worked and unfortntatly many that didn’t—for shart attack and reef wounds common sence and not losing your head would be the best you can do . always travel with a good aid kid that all on the trip know how to use and hope for the best i guess…dosn’t mean i’ll stop travelling to off the map places though…you takes your chances and enjoys the good stuff

29

been about a few decades since i surfed down in mainland Mexico,not to take away from the useful info presented here.but please don’t paint the people there as being ignorant to their environment ,yes lack of money for various reasons has lead to poor policies at times there, in the land of plenty[USA} what was our excuse for poor environmental policies can anyone say abalone beds when we killed the sea life that competed with us?[HUH!} for the abs and our demand for oil to deface mother ocean???Here is a link for you to read about some people of color that can also be caretakers of the ocean.sometimes its very offensive to read how we pass judgment .to all those surfers who pass thru Mexico in this life, those that have been welcomed know the magic of the place you get what you put out as they say Vaya con Dios… http://www.oceanoasis.org/behindthescenes/researchers.html

30

Um, so…how does that explain the mass killing of sharks?

This WAS a thread about shark attack.

Yes, the “land of plenty” is the source of all evil done to the enironment. Yah right. Just ask China, India, most of Southeast Asia, and yes, Mexico. As they reap the benefit of not being regulated like the “land of plenty” where we have the money and freedom of speach to empower environmentalist who can look out their back door and see bad stuff and do something about it.

Typical myopic reasoning. The US is guilty so regulate. That drives the business to countries that are 50 years behind the US in environmental controls. Then when faced with that reality, blame people for wanting stuff. Y’know, like car you drive and the computer you typed this on. That’s a great, long term, global answer. Over regulate the responsible countries so the irresponsible ones can dump more waste and be less efficient with their fuels.

The US is basically strangling under regulation. Not that we shouldn’t keep it clean, but all these people pointing fingers at US business ought to put their energies into following the chemicals they’ve run out of the US. Those chemicals are still being used, only now they’re being used a lot more recklessly in other parts of the world. So, what? Because we feel sorry for the poor country just trying to make a living we don’t care if they flush their heavy metals into the river? It’s like you’re all hopping up and down worrying about a smoldering campfire in a nice solid fire ring, while there’s a forest fire buring over the next ridge.

I guess it’s easier to hop around the campfire where the ranger acknowledges you have every right to complain about the campfire. As opposed to where the forest fire is because it’s a steep hill to climb and when you get to the ridge it’s lined with guys with guns speaking a different language and they might very well throw your a$$ in prison, never to be heard from again. Yeah, let’s go back down the hill and bitcha about the campfire some more.

The mess is actually getting worse and it’s not productive to point at old, bad policies from years ago (abalone). The reality is any violation of the environment is a violation. Just because a country doesn’t have resources isn’t an excuse. The oceans, rivers, reef systems, etc. don’t care how rich the people are that are dumping on them. They just die.

Whew! And I thought you were on a soapbox. Okay, lemme get down off mine. I feel better now.

31

I work with the fire service and was talking with my colleague AJ Heightman the other day about this discussion (really an interesting conversation). He knows EMS and here are his thoughts:

A.J. Heightman, MPA, EMT-P, Editor-in-Chief of the Journal of Emergency Medical Services (JEMS) offers the following recommendations for surfers and others in the water far from shore.

While all the blood cooagulation powers and bandages work well, they will not work well 150 yards off shore, in the water, after a shark bite. What’s needed in that case is the immediate, rapid application of a tourniquet above the wound sites.

If multiple surfers are in the water and each is carrying a tourniquet, they can swim to the injured surfer immediately and have the tourniquets on each affected limb in less than 30 seconds. This will, in most instances, save the injured surfer’s life.

I would recommend they go to the North American Rescue Products Web site and buy the one-handed C.A.T. (Casualty Application Tourniquet) tourniquet that all our troops in Iraq carry so a soldier can apply it fast - by themselves - when needed.

It comes in ORANGE or BLUE, as well as black. I would recommend ORANGE so the surfer/wearer can find it easily when needed and does not get confused when applying it over a wet suit.

It could actually be worn (loose) comfortably over the swimmer’s wet suit because it first is secured with a Velcro band. If needed, all you do is twist the tightening bar three times and secure it in place in the curved lock area. This is what tightens it and stops bleeding below that site. If it’s needed for another person, it can be “un-Velcroed” and applied and TIGHTENED on someone else.

http://www.narescue.com/Combat-Application-Tourniquet-C-A-T

32

Ryan ,

  my point was not to lump sum the people there as not caring and i gave a link to some there that are trying to make a difference,,your analogy of fire etc.. is misguided,if you look at the US chemical industries as you have stated ,plenty of ban products were shipped to other countries knowingly that were banned in US agriculture as we became aware of their harmfulness, to the environment and human health one and the same.Hopefully our children will not be the recipients of bad decision making for profit as if you go to the stores plenty of produce coming into the US markets are from over seas.History is a great teacher and can be a benefit or hindrance depends on ones point of view,and whether we learn anything from it. too long we screw things up and then say thats old news and lets move on its time as citizens that we started taking more responsibility for our poor judgments and hold ourselves to fix it without procrastination or one day we will probably justify the 15 billion dollars a month we spend on a war while our we and our children become enslaved to the money mongers and their mantra of be all you can be... clarity?My box is broken and i wish you well and the medical advice here is great.
33

Good point, though I kinda doubt most surfers would go out and buy ( and wear, religiously ) this tourniquet. Unless I could steal one from my friendly neighborhood EMT… and even then, remembering it every day is prolly beyond me. The senior moments are starting to blend into one big one these days, I’m doing well to remember board and wetsuit and…uhhhh… something…

However, as a very sharp fellow mentioned not long ago:

Quote:

Knowledge,skill and keeping your wits about you will keep you and yours alive…it has for me… many times over.

You don’t have a tourniquet nor does anybody else. Or, Joe does, but he’s on the beach and he’d have to paddle out. Or he’s on the next peak, a half mile down the shore. After you get his attention…somebody else has to paddle in, then he has to paddle out. And then you all get the victim in.

Said victim is screwed.

If, as Herb mentions, you’re losing 450ml/min, that’s a major arterial ( bright red blood) injury. You have about 5 liters, that’s a little under 10% per minute.

If the bleeding is not that bad…well, using a tourniquet should be a last resort anyhow. Misuse of a tourniquet can lose all the limb from the tourniquet down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_bleeding_control has some very good info, as does a good First Aid class.

But let’s play Major Arterial Injury. Fun for the whole family, ages 8 and up.

Lose 15-30%, (1 1/2-3 minutes) you’re in shock. Less, you’re not gonna be happy. More than 40%, it’s quite likely to kill ya.

How long will it take to get to the beach and back?

So, ya gotta play Macguyver. Use available materials. Be resourceful. Ask yourself, “What would Herb do?”

What do almost all of us have that’s gonna work, at least partially, as a tourniquet?

Well, how about a leash? That’ll do the trick, done right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethany_Hamilton - it’s not even original.

Everybody is old school, no leashes allowed? Whaddya got?

Well, ya know the string that holds your baggies on? That’ll work. Not perfectly, but it’ll work. Can’t get the string loose? Take 'em off, use the string and the baggies - you have a choice between a sunburned butt and your buddy bleeding to death in front of you. Ladies, a Lycra bathing suit will do it too. Stretched out, they are surprisingly strong.

Before you get any ugly mental pictures about me, I used to sell women’s bathing suits. But I didn’t model them. Or anything else that’s prohibited by law or the major religions. We did test how strong they were…and there was this one Valkyrie of a woman, over six feet tall and looking like a Jaegermeister ad, who insisted on trying an XXSmall… but I digress…

And if everybody is completely old-school leashless and surfing stark naked?

Can’t help you there, but anyone that Luddite is not gonna be using a computer to read this. And that bunch, they’ll paddle their solid wood boards in to their bamboo lean-tos and unimproved caves on the beach and call it a sacrifice to the Shark God.

I’m not gonna worry about it at that point…

doc…

34

Yep, time is critical and creativity can make the difference. I wouldn’t wear that tourniquet thing day in and day out but it might be handy to have in a kit on the beach to use until better help can be found. One thing that is slick about that tourniquet and it’s a point of concern with tourniquets in general is adjustability and tissue damage. The one posted by C-slug has a nice wide band and can be adjusted without completely realeasing it. That should allow some control over the bleeding and possibly allow minimal circulation. You can tune it so it’s just tight enough to stop the major bleed and it won’t damage the vessels and soft tissue as a cord would. Just a thought.

35

Hey Doc, Ryan,

One of the guys we were talking with was a lifeguard in Hawaii and knew the people who responded to Betheny. Gnarly story there. She didn’t even see the shark. I think Laird Hamilton recently used his wetsuit as a tourniquet to save his PWC driver.

People seem to have these distinctions, like there is wilderness and there is civilization and you are always safe in the latter. But we all exist in an ecosystem, not apart from it.

C

36

greetings from ixtapa/zihuatanejo

unfortunate accident, my condolences to Adrian’s family and friends.

also unfortunate about the response time, being out in Troncones which is actually 30-40 minutes from the Naval Hospital in Ixtapa. word is that people on the scene did everything they possibly could with compresses etc. but that the wound was from HIP to knee. not sure they would have been able to apply turniquet, am i wrong?

if there is a positive thing about this it’s that now there is a lot of talk of establishing an emergency post or ambulance out there. here’s hoping it comes through.

the shark massacre is upsetting to say the least as it has no logic. there has been much opposition of course and the hunt has stopped, as per word on the street yesterday. it’s not to paint the Mexican authorities as ignorant, ignorance exists everywhere. there are a lot of intelligent, environmentally aware people down here - foreigners and Mexicans alike. it is simple though, the fishing of the sharks was futile.

37

It’s always possible to have a wound that you can’t apply a tourniquet to or stop the bleeding in some other way and people can “bleed out” no matter how heroic the effort. A tourniquet is not always the right answer either and it shouldn’t be a the first response to an injury unless the bleeding can’t be stopped by other means like compression and elevation. Tourniquets can do serious damage to an extremity if used unnecessarily or incorrectly so they should only be used in serious situations.

I’m glad for the dialog by Doc and Herb and others because it reminds me that I need to update my aid kit and it’s caused me, and I’m sure others, to think a little more about how prepared or unprepared I am to deal with a life threatening situation that requires an immediate response.

My sympathies go out to the friends and families of those who died and also to those who tried in vain to save the injured.

38

Here’s a thought.

No leash ,no trunks,no wettie(what the heck are you DOING out in public ???)

Here in Cali. there’s usually loads of kelp around…I bet that would make a nice turnnie.

…Doc’s King here,

And I can tell he’s put some time into this subject and deserves the title.

But keep it rollin’ !

There’s not enough of this info. out in the general public and it needs to be.

H

39

Oh ya,

Ryan,

A turnnie can cause some major probs…I was taught 15min. max on a turnnie…but that might have changed by now.

Plus,a turnnie won’t work on a Femoral artery that has been severed.

That’s because the artery retracts up into the pelvis…not much good a turnnie will do for you there.

I also would like to send out my condolences to the loved ones of the victim’s families.

And my most honest,“I’m sorry for your loss” that I can convey.

H

40

"Well, ya know the string that holds your baggies on? That’ll work. Not perfectly, but it’ll work. Can’t get the string loose? Take 'em off, use the string and the baggies - you have a choice between a sunburned butt and your buddy bleeding to death in front of you. Ladies, a Lycra bathing suit will do it too. Stretched out, they are surprisingly strong.

Before you get any ugly mental pictures about me, I used to sell women’s bathing suits. But I didn’t model them. Or anything else that’s prohibited by law or the major religions. We did test how strong they were…and there was this one Valkyrie of a woman, over six feet tall and looking like a Jaegermeister ad, who insisted on trying an XXSmall… but I digress… "

This also is not an original, untested idea. Laird used his board shorts to put a tourniquet on his tow partner last year at Jaws. Oh, and if I have to surf with a tourniquet because of the local shark population, I’m probably not gonna surf there.