appeal process for locked threads?

General Discussion
1

A few times over the years of reading Swaylocks religiously, I’ve thought that threads were unjustly or prematurely “locked”. The most recent is Hicksy’s decision to lock down the “are All guru shapers lousy businessmen?” thread. I’ve heard rustling in the bushes regarding the business practices of the guru shaper in question, but never enough to verify or disprove the rumors to my satisfaction. Finally, a thread shows up that truly brings the issue out in the open, and it gets locked down while the conversation was still progressing in a constructive and reasonably civil manner.

Now, don’t get me wrong… I do agree that personal attacks should not be allowed and should be dealt with, BUT I do not see that thread as being a personal attack, but rather a question of a businessman’s practices. Unless I missed it, the poster never went beyond beyond what he expected of the guru shaper as a businessman.

It just seems biased that we can jump onto swaylocks, toot our horns about a boardmaker when he does something good, but if we get (justifiably?) riled up enough to sign on and throw one egg at a businessman who did not do right, we get censored.

It just all tastes a little hypocritical to me. It seems that a “hush hush” or “protect our own” effort is being made regarding this particular thread. Should we only allow the “so and so made me a wonderful board” and the “it took a long time, but the wait for a board from so-and-so is worth it” threads?

Also note that I think long wait-times are appropriate for works coming from craftsmen if the original estimate was to expect to wait a long time. I also feel that if the estimate was X amount of time and the man needs maybe 10% longer to do the job right, it might be acceptable. But to blow by the “you’ll have it by” date by multiples of the original estimate is just plain inappropriate and rude and I believe the customers were justified to seek answers from the source and again justified in complaining publicly when they were lied to and brushed off.

I guess I just feel that if one is not equally allowed to print something negative as something postive, the resource (in this case, swaylocks) loses a little credibility as an open and unbiased source of information. I kind of feel that this issue was brushed under the rug. I can’t help but feel that there was a push FOR the shaper in question and AGAINST the burned consumer.

I can’t help but think of the seller rating system at Ebay. If there are hundreds or thousands of positive reviews of a person and his/her business, and one or two negative ones, doesn’t that mean that person has a very high rate of customer satisfaction? If you see someone has a less-than-100%-satisfaction rating, you can read the reviews of the satisfied customers and weigh those against the one or two dissatisfied parties and choose accordingly (for the record, I’ve comfortably purchased from E-bayers who had less than 100% rankings and walked away satisfied). It is a good system and IT WORKS.

Why should purchasing a surfboard (or anything) be any different?

I want truth and not fluff. As a customer, I WANT to be informed of buyer-beware threads.

So, is there an appeal process for unlocking threads? If so, I nominate the one in question because I really want to hear how it plays out.

2

plain an simple

its an easy way to discredit your opposition

just log in a few internet cafes

have a good bitch

and there you are

thats why sways has to moderate

so the system doesnt get abused

not to mention the last post in that thread which was very personal

3

I guess. Isn’t it equally easy to pimp your own sh*t? Maybe we should delete threads that praise people’s work too.

I guess you were referring to liguid’s comments? If so, shouldn’t HE be the one edited or censored rather than throwing out the baby with the bath water?

I dunno. I guess I am just disappointed with the whole deal, including the choice to lock it down.

(edit: spelling error)

4

Thanks Hackey for your comments----if you read down through the thread—i was quite happy to have the thread slowly die after Ambroses comments-----I got what i wanted --A Forum–for my story----and having people read it was fine–in fact people have made efforts in my behalf in San Diego yesterday and today…as to the Lockdown, thats part of swaylocks and liquids comments? at my age and experience i can let it float away like a piece of s---- :wink:

3000 views on Swaylocks, 700 views on Surfer, 8 views on surfing(?) There is power in the internet–that power in this case was negative publicity to stir the pot of public opinion it was almost worth $350 to watch the process occur, almost…

5

I agree with you,

Locked threads are censorship

Adults don’t need the censor, having Hicksy or anyone else locking threads is telling us what we are supposed to think, read, and write

We can make up our own minds !

Censorship always reflects the agenda of the censor, or the trolls. . . the trolls often control the moderator and can nudge him into locking threads by mucking the the thread up with trolling. . . happens to me all the time: "look. another one of HIS threads locked. . . . . bad bad, the death of swaylocks blah blah blah "

.

6

there is power in the internet and its easily abused

trial by internet isnt what i would call “fair”

its so easy to “set someone up” through internet forums

good one hicksy

you made the right choice

its what sets this site apart

its not easily used as tool for industry guys to try and F$%k each other over

its so easy to make shit up about people and watch it spread on the net

(not saying you did this walrus)but can you see my point?

if I had an enemy

the best way i could attack and discredit them is through internet forums

hey roy

i agree that your threads are unfortunately sometimes locked due to trolling

understand that threads are locked for different reasons

whether its over personal attacks

or political agendas

slander

marketing

or legal reasons

sometimes random and seemingly harmless threads, edge there way into these categories

7

I agree with Roy (“Censorship always reflects the agenda of the censor”) and do see silly’s point.

I desire truth and despise agendas.

I also hate to see abuse of a benevolent system and understand why censorship can be necessary in the defense against libel and slander. But I don’t like it.

I guess it all comes down to which way you want to err, and there will always be those (in this case, me) who think one erred the wrong way.

8

You can always appeal by sending a PM to one or more of the moderators. Locked threads have been unlocked in the past, it may happen again. As for the agenda of the moderators, the only agenda I know of is to keep swaylocks clean and informative. Personal attacks are a big no-no and will cause lockdowns.

regards,

Håvard

9
Quote:

You can always appeal by sending a PM to one or more of the moderators. Locked threads have been unlocked in the past, it may happen again. As for the agenda of the moderators, the only agenda I know of is to keep swaylocks clean and informative. Personal attacks are a big no-no and will cause lockdowns.

regards,

Håvard

I don’t know if unlocking a thread in response to demand shows responsiveness, or that the moderator likely over-reacted in the first place. I’ve lobbied for a specific, objective set of criteria (not general guidelines that can be bent to mean whatever someone needs them to mean at any particular time) for locking threads and banning posters, but I’ve seen no signs that plea has fallen on ears that hear.

I agree with Hackysack that it would have been better to quash liquid than lock the thread after his post, which was nearly all complaints and anecdotes with an air of legitimacy (or will someone again chant the mantra that “there is no credibility on the internet”, therefore what several proven reliable veteran Swaylocks posters presented as fact must have actually just dribbled out their derrieres?)

I also harbor a suspicion that if it had been someone who has less of an icon status on this forum than Rich Pavel getting bashed, the thread might still be open. I generally agree with Roy’s position on censorship of internet forums and the ability of individuals to decide for themselves, however, I have seen forums that have gone so completely to Hell that you could no longer consistently find a valid topic or follow any thread, so I suppose there do need to be some limits imposed.

Regarding the whining near the end of that thread that this is a design forum, I have to call bullshit on that. There are tons of non-surfboard-design threads on this site, a good many of them attracting the participation of moderators or even started by same. Again, where are the standards, and where is the objectivity? Don’t get me wrong, the moderation here is generally tolerable, but it could easily be made much more consistent, therefore, better.

Oh, and to address the subject question as originally posed: I don’t see how you could have an appeals process without introducing a cumbersome mechanism that would itself create controversy. With open, specific, objective, and consistently applied standards, I think the need for such a process is minimized.

-Samiam

10

point made by pavels response

11

If you PM me with a good reason why a thread I locked needs to be unlocked I will always listen, check things out from your POV and let you know what I will/won’t do and the reason why…

I’ve had a few requests from around a dozen or so people to either lock or unlock a thread…

Sometimes I’ve acted alone or in consultation with the other mods…

Basically it’s boils down to sticking with the rules that Mike laid down for his site…

12

"Locked threads are censorship

Adults don’t need the censor, having Hicksy or anyone else locking threads is telling us what we are supposed to think, read, and write

We can make up our own minds !"

Hi Roy -

I don’t think the moderators are here to tell you or anyone else what you are supposed to think, read, and write. There is however a time and place for everything and we do our best to generally keep things civil.

Seriously, we know we aren’t going to be able please everybody all the time. Some sites are stricter than others when it comes to moderator interference. Some sites are like grafitti on a shithouse wall… more like cyber fire hydrants than discussion forums. Mike decided early on to try and take the high road and asked for a little help.

Many individuals have started blogs either as stand alone sites or within a website. I think Dennis Ryder is doing the latter. He even mentions attending a surfboard design workshop hosted by your friend Bill Thrailkill and he doesn’t have to deal with no stinkin’ moderators. Have you thought about maybe doing that on your site?

Contrary to what you might want to believe or say, none of the moderators have an agenda one way or the other when it comes to you, Rich Pavel or anyone else who keeps a generally civil tone.

Persistent argumentative attitude, insults, and the like might get our attention at some point. Suggesting that we are puppets on a string for trolls out to get you is downright silly. Fact is, it doesn’t happen “all the time”, if ever.

13

Hi John,

I hear you, however you are puppets on a string in the sense that anyone who wants to take down a thread can just wait for a disagreement to happen and then start up the familiar " how sad another argument boo hoo bad for swaylocks" line, which attracts the other hardcore moaners who who like to show up when that line is happening and then you more or less have to lock the thread because it becomes a long moan about nothing other than how bad it is to argue. . . . . . not your fault but you are still being manipulated by people who use the rules as an underhand weapon.

Not that I give a toss really, it’s just an observation. . . . . and a minor inefficiency in an otherwise great site. . . . .

:slight_smile:

14
Quote:

I desire truth and despise agendas.

Truth about what?

Surfboards?

Please explain to us the source of your seriousness towards discussions about surfboards and surfing.

15
Quote:

I want truth and not fluff. As a customer, I WANT to be informed of buyer-beware threads.

Oh ok I see.

What information did you not get from Walrus’ very first post?

(that’s pretty much all I need to know to write the guy off)

So youre a ‘customer’.

I must be confused,I thought we were just members.

Consumer Alert: this Surfboard Design Forum is now officially a surfboard Consumer Advocate Service forum.

Run for the hills!

16

Im seeing the light now.

Frankly, how RP runs his business is inconsequential to me cuz I build my own.

But you seem REALLY interested in it.

Let’s see if we can find the truth…

you were seriously thinking of buying a Pavel (or competing against him), but you wanted to hear the low down on Walrus’ sitch, just so YOU can avoid waiting 18 months or getting burned of your deposit too.

Ahh yes…how convinient this forum…even will all the ‘censorship’.

17
Quote:

What information did you not get from Walrus’ very first post?

(that’s pretty much all I need to know to write the guy off)

How about evidence about whether Walrus’ experience was a one-time aberration or represents a pattern?

Quote:

So youre a ‘customer’.

I must be confused,I thought we were just members.

That is disingenuous - it was pretty clear that hackysack was claiming to be a potential customer of a surfboard vendor, not a customer of Swaylocks.

-Samiam

18
Quote:

Im seeing the light now.

Frankly, how RP runs his business is inconsequential to me cuz I build my own.

But you seem REALLY interested in it.

Let’s see if we can find the truth…

you were seriously thinking of buying a Pavel (or competing against him), but you wanted to hear the low down on Walrus’ sitch, just so YOU can avoid waiting 18 months or getting burned of your deposit too.

Ahh yes…how convinient this forum…even will all the ‘censorship’.

Is that supposed to make some kind of sense? I can’t even unravel the syntax. It also makes me wonder about what could possibly motivate someone to send three consecutive, unanswered replies attacking the same post and poster.

-Samiam

19

For those of you who had read and responded to this thread----THank YOU, Rich has personally responded to me on the now Unlocked thread----we will be chatting on the phone soon, and the board will travel to it’s home----this was a very interesting experience for me, (and not just the 17 month delay)—the power of Swaylocks is unreal.

Thank YOU again, and have a wonderful and safe EASTER Holiday

walrus(CTA)

20

I kinda agree, it wasn’t getting into UFC fight in that thread. No need to lock it … . but I see its unlocked

Part of this could be from the fact that Hackey is from surfermag, where Pavel is very highly regarded.

I’ll throw in my 2 c

I’ve spoken with Pavel and he’s been very helpful. He even helped me score the entire Rip Curl search series, when the only one I wanted was Tom Curren, and for 6 extra dvds (including the Curren) for $10 more than the original quote was good to go. Sure boards from him take a long time, but he tells you up front about it.