What makes me laugh is everyone obsessing about microscopic rocker changes and then hand-lamming the blanks on T-racks; where distortions can and do occur. If you want control over your rockers you're going to have to break free of the old-school lam tech.
I agree 100%
I wasn’t talking about microscopic rockers changes. Far from it.
I’ve measured my boards after the boards were glassed on T racks by Haakenson and I have no complaints.
I don’t think symmmetry or accuracy to microscopic tolerances are discernible to the average surfer, not even Kelly Slater for that matter.
Surfboards, for the most part, are still a craft, and although some in the industry would like to take that element out of it, I do not.
Like Yater, I will continue to handshpae surfboards even though having files is a necessity for economic reasons and to remain competitive in the industry.
If the demand is there, you have to supply that demand in the most efficacious, timely manner possible.
Mike, I realize you have embraced a completely different approach within your business model and have enjoyed success in doing so. Let’s each agree to differ on how we decide to deliver our product to the consumer…
Fair 'nuff, DS. My comment was more directed at others who might be reading this, I want people to realize there are completely different ways of doing all of this - they don't have to do it the same way everybody else does it.
**Amen… **
deadshaper:
The Quaker comment is only my vein attempt to make a little humor out of the situation.
It wasn’t personal at all.
I was only referring to the having fitted rockers to cut your design on the cnc machine.
When I had a cutting service I saw a lot of ugly blanks go through so I only suspect fitting issues.
We were pretty stoked to cut what we believe to be a perfect model.
I thought about what a luxury it is to control everything from A-Z.
Most board builders have no control over the cnc to the degree that one who has his own machine.
I was just being grateful for the tools at my disposal.
Currently we have a digital touch probe. The software that runs in took a lot of programing.
We have been investigating LAZER Scanning. We figured out how to generate a cutting file into Shape 3D.
The technology is amazing however can you justify the ROI for such an investment?
These debates always turn to sour grapes.
Kind regards,
surfding
Well said.
Ding… I was miffed at first thinking you were suggesting I was taking an archaic approach to design and shaping. Then I realized your sense of humor and ligthened up… like “these shoes are killing me”.
I really meant no disrespect whatsoever.
I think this thread is actually helpful to novices like me getting their feet wet with Shape3d or similar programs. It helps to learn about where variances might, and can, happen versus someone telling guys thinking about getting one of their designs reverse engineered and thinking it will be perfectly reproduced.
Ultimately it would be better to have the companies that offer the service to publish a simple guide about what the designer/shaper can do TO GUARANTEE THE BEST OUTCOME of their design/file.
Sure, there will be guys that say “ah, use any old blank you got around”…and other guys saying “what do I need to do to get the strongest truest deck and bottom rocker from my design”?
Some of the comments made in this thread about the importance of the machines being clean, the setup, etc. is actually HELPFUL to me in understanding what can cause differences in the milling of a design.
By absolutely no stretch of the imagination do I think that machining a model is counter productive in supplying a high quality product to the consumer… Quite to the contrary:
In the real word of board production today, many blank companies have designed blanks that are specifically created for being machined. That’s a good thing unless you have one of those blanks and need to handshape it. The close tolerance blanks are what the handshaper needs, and should use.
Hopefully the blank companies will not play a numbers game and disconntinue supplying close tolerance blanks for the handshaper. I could see that happening, and it would be a sad day indeed.
Bottom line is…this thread helps shed light on what you guys do. And what you do is an important service for any shaper trying to make a living while remaining competitive against mass produced surfboards using cheap offshore labor.
Dead:
This has been a very informative tread.
The CNC realm is still continuing to improve.
We are not there yet however we are getting better.
There are various stages of learning in this game.
The more know how we obtain the more secure we will be
Kind regards,
surfding
Re rocker before and after lam - I’ve learned (the hard way) that I stand a better chance of getting my rockers closer to what I want when I set my shaping racks the same distance apart as the glassing racks when I measure rocker. Not perfect but pretty close.
Patrick, I am on the Gold Coast and have had some problems with APS too. I found that whenever I got a board cut ( by the manufacturer of the machine ) it would come back to me offset in the tail, always wider ( relative to the stringer ) on the left hand side of the tail while standing at the tail with the board bottom up. The difference was usually 4 to 8mm but at worst 13mm. I was consistently told that it was the brand of blank I was using, the glue up, my file etc etc. The other issue I would consistently have was crust on the machine cuts. This was blamed on the inaccurate rocker glue ups of my blank supplier. I have master jigs to check all my rockers to ensure accuracy in deck curves. So, off to their suggested blank manufacturer and guess what same problem regardless of blank manufacturer. Now crust is something that I understand if im trying to get max volume out of a blank. But should a blank that is 3 3/4" thick with a checked and accurate rocker be able to yield a crust-free 2 3/8" thick board? You would think so, but no. Of the last 8 boards I had cut at APS with a mix of blanks from the 2 main players on the Gold Coast, all 8 were off set in the tail while 5 had crust. So on to trying to ressurect the shapes. 4 were saveable for stock and 4 simply could not be used as they were custom orders. Next step, off to 2 seperate AKU machines. Same customs recut from the same rocker checked blanks, no crust, outline at nose, wide point and tail all spot on. I’ve since had 70+ boards cut on AKU from both blank companies in pu and styro with crust on only 1 occasion from a thick high volume file out of a thinner blank. So is it machine, operator, blanks or glue ups? For me my situation improved instantly with a different machine and operator. It may be as Dave said that the machine I used has it’s own personality. I have seen other shapers boards through for repairs that i had seen in the APS shed and the offset tails were visible to the naked eye. I had used APS for a number of years and was in general happy with their service and integrity. I was disappointed however that working together we could not achieve the accuracy that I expected from a machine.
Sorry for the hijack, but this is the point that i like in this thread…
As for cutting forces deforming the blank… you can take that one out 110%. The cutting forces are negligible with a disk type cutter, even if the blade is old and worn out!
The akushaper program that drives the aps3000 machine does not do blade thickness compensation. It will cut innacuratelly in the curvier spots of your board… The thicker the cutter, the worse the error (it can get substantial)… in wich actual designed board spots are cut off!.. So, if you are an aps3000 machine owner and you use the akushaper program… i would be very unhappy with the aku developers for that, but i can see the benefit they take out of it… it helps them selling the aku as they claim it is a more accurate machine… its bs… both machines are capable much the same accuracy. The programs aren’t… on purpose.
The akushaper program that drives the akushaper machine does blade width compensation and it works very well.
Now, there is a stupid problem with aku’s both programs… the lineup of the top and bottom toolpaths, longitudinally (or along the X axis). I know its hard to believe Haavard, but it’s true and I have tested it for a fair number of different versions. What actually happens is that the Xoffset of the bottom toolpath is not done right, it falls short of about 2-3mm (error dependent on blade thickness), what gives noticeable differences in board thickness, and most visibly at the tail and nose tip ofcourse. So, aku, go fix that… I know where and why that error was intruduced (long time ago) but they haven’t yet realized its silly way of doing it.
Shape3d does a perfect job at lining up the toolpaths. Have tested it over and over with lots of v8s. S3d also does good blade width compensation.
In having said all that… i can guarantee that most of the customer complaints, have the originating problem in:
1.nasty blank stringer glue up.
2.operator;
3.machine “out of whack” … big list of things that could be set wrong…
4.software with machining parameters set wrong.
and of course, if all of the above are off by a little bit, all adds up and results will be on the cut boards… ;(
Hi foilnuts:
Very accurate statement.
Kind regards,
surfding
The positioning of the blank is actually a little more complex then you would think looking at it. I know, I’ve screwed it up royally in boardcad, time after time. Hope it’s right now. I’m sure there are a closed form solutions to this, but it was easier for me to do it the software geek way. Then again, I’m not a professor in mathematics. As you say, there are a number of other things that may be wrong too. Or so I’ve learned…
My experience with cnc cuts is limited. I use a profiler quite a bit …When the blank is secured on the suction hold-down , and then the deck is cut , this alters the surface tension of the blank…when the suction hold down is released , the curve of the deck would alter slightly…when the board is flipped over to cut the bottom , how do you guys allow for this variation in the deck curve before cutting the bottom ?..Dave?..Ding?..I’m usually there to watch my cnc cuts , whenever possible , but have yet to see the operator make a "check and adjustment " before the bottom was cut.
Hi Kayu:
If you stage the blank on the fixture supports before the vacuum hold down is activated you will prevent distortion.
The idea is to prevent rocker fallout.
Same should be applied to both deck and bottom.
Fitted blanks make this procedure a walk in the park.
Random blanks (seconds) can be problematic.
Hope this makes sense?
Kind regards,
surfding
Thanks Ding…question answered.