asymmetric boards

General Discussion
21

I doubt very much that this patent is still applicable. Patents have to be updated every so often and modified. if it was left to fall by the wayside then it would fall away and no longer be enforceable. Also, what he’s patented is essentially doing on purpose what most people do by mistake and have since the first surfboard was shaped… be asymmetrical.

Of course, we all know that he did this intentionally for the same reason that this discussion is taking place. It makes good sense for the reasons discussed. I’m just saying the the patent itself, not Carls vision and work, seems so broad as to be self defeating as it would be beaten through “prior art”, even if that prior art was unintentional on the part of squinty eyed shapers with limited shaping talent lol.

Carl sure was a forward thinker.

What mystifies me, is WHY this has never taken off. It seems so logical. And one thing surfing has going for it is that unlike almost every other sport, where gear is “models off the shelf”, surfing has a very high percentage of boards which are custom hand shaped. This means that the problem snowboarding had - 2x the number of models to stock, does not apply, as boards are made to order one at a time anyway. I can’t imagine asymmetric boards not working - even if that asymmetry is very minute, it HAS to be bette than a perfectly symmetrical board. So why is this NOT the NORM in boards. And if not the norm, at least somewhat present. But it’s an abscurity. Something a few “far out” shapers have played with, and not something that average surfer uses or considers. Thats the amazing part.

We’ll see and I may adjust my opinion, but as someone said, too often I’ve ridden a board that I loved frontside, but liked less backside, and vice versa, not to want to combine those two boards into one, and the fact that I’ve heard this comment so many times over the years, simply leads one to believe that asymmetrical must be better for at least some conditions and some riders. So why is it essentially non present at all. Not even (especially even…) with the pro surfers who are surely looking for every little advantage they can get.

Corran

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Google Carl Ekstrom asymmetrical surfboard. I think you’ll find what you are looking for.

Just for completeness: U.S. Patent # 3,337,886 (Applic: 1965; Awarded: 1967)

22

Hey Blane,

Great thread that. Very interesting to read. I knew I came to the right place here to look into this stuff.

Corran

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Haha! I remember a few years ago doing these and they worked pretty darn good!

http://www.swaylocks.com/…0asymetrical;#232499

I’ve been planning a SUP board for myself and I think this will get the ball rolling… Waves have been just insane here since Feb7th EVERYDAY!!! Ahwoooooooooooooooo!!!

Aloha,

Blane

23

I’ve always felt like I had more leverage on my backside lippers, because I could come harder off the bottom. But then I re-thought it… it’s really about the transistion from heel side to toe side at the top that feels so good. Toe to heel transitions don’t have as much power because you don’t have the leverage of your foot to take all that energy. You just have the stump of your heel.

24

cool thread. i don’t have anything to contribute, but i’m all ears. very interested in where this discussion might lead.

25

Hey corran,

“So why is this NOT the NORM in boards. And if not the norm, at least somewhat present. But it’s an abscurity. Something a few “far out” shapers have played with, and not something that average surfer uses or considers. Thats the amazing part.”

Just my 2c, but just by thinking about this and bringing this up here, you have made yourself more aware than the average surf consumer, I think…

It can be hard to realize that most customers in the surf business are driven/led by what is in the mags/surf media, and what’s in the mags is symmetric, except for the odd obscurity, just like you said…

As to why more customs aren’t asymmetrical, I have no idea…other than symmetrics are what most people are familiar with, and are unwilling to make the leap and encounter the possible speedbumps which would cost time and money…

For most, having what is cool (or very close to it) is more comforting than having what works…this applies to many more things than just surfing…go to the slopes and see how many folks want Shaun White’s board, or skis too long for them to handle…driven by media. Most people (including me), for most things, are just sheep. I do have to say though, sheep lead pretty comfortable and carefree lives, so it can’t be all bad…

Again, just my opinion, I could be wrong, and I can stand to be corrected…

JSS

26

Jacobs, along with a few other labels, was doing asymmetrical boards back in the late 70s. It’s an idea that seems to re-surface every so many years. Morey-Pope used an offset fin on their Blue Machine model (mid 60s). The Blue Machine was the brainchild of Bob Cooper. Yater also did some boards with an offset fin during the 60s. While the plan shape retained a standard outline, the idea of the offset fin was along the same lines as an asymmetric. Placing the fin to one side was intended to ‘balance’ the difference between frontside and backside turns.

27

They are too hard to for shops to sell. You have to actually know what you are talking about. Also surfboards are more about fashion than function. I used to get laughed at pretty good carrying em across the beach. I got used to that and realized if you are not being laughed at in the parking lot you are NOT on the right tract. So many variables to play with HAVE FUN.

28

I like this tail. This is something similar I had in mind for a personal experiment… Ahhhhh, the beauty of having no boundries!

29

The real question is… If they really do work better, why don’t the pros ride them, and then media hype them, and more get put on the racks?

30
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Carl sure was a forward thinker.

Carl IS a forward thinker. He’s still on top of his game.

Last time I was at his house he showed me some of his Asymmetric boards. Not only did he have a batch of some of the most well crafted surfboards I’ve ever seen… he was also working on some asymmetric boards for using with the Flowrider - which he also helped design.

Carl is not just a surfboard guy… he’s one of the best designers and craftsmen out there.

I’ve never taken to asymmetric boards because I like to think I surf the same in every direction. Whether that’s true or not… symmetry appeals to me. I think that’s the case with most people.

Dick Brewer has a funny story about the first board he had scanned. He was asked if he wanted the right or left side of the board scanned. His response was - “what difference does it… oh, I get it”. He says at least surfers aren’t symmetrical. RB also played around with asymmetric designs on surfboards and windsurfers. I think more windsurfers were willing to experiment since the whole sport was new and experimental anyway.

.

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The real question is… If they really do work better, why don’t the pros ride them, and then media hype them, and more get put on the racks?

Ha ha! This is classic. Here’s the cool thing about being a shaper. You can do whatever the hell you want just because you FEEL like it and it doesn’t matter what people think of it. For me, I’m not trying to sell anyone on asymetrical stuff, it’s just something I like to play with. Not to be selfish but these asym boards are all about me! I have enough high profile surfers riding my stuff. Heck, I should have them ride these and then it will be “IN” Ha ha!

32

Exactly.

However, often what people use (even the pro’s) is not what’s best, but what’s known.

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The real question is… If they really do work better, why don’t the pros ride them, and then media hype them, and more get put on the racks?

33

Couple of thoughts:

  1. Asymmetrical boards are a “crutch” in that they make going front or backside easier. Pros are athletes. They don’t need crutches, they already know how to go backside. So that is why they don’t need/use them.

  2. If you are mass producing them, you’d have to make two versions; one for regulars and one for goofies…no one is going to do that.

  3. Not sure but they don’t look like good boards for computer designing or milling.

  4. Because of 3. they would be the ultimate custom board. That might save the custom board building industry if they went large scale.

  5. Just a guess but I don’t think there is a “large scale” market here.

  6. Asymmetrical boards would be the ultimate playground for Sways; a whole pack of backyarders doing all the R&D for the industry!

34
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They are too hard to for shops to sell. You have to actually know what you are talking about. Also surfboards are more about fashion than function. I used to get laughed at pretty good carrying em across the beach. I got used to that and realized if you are not being laughed at in the parking lot you are NOT on the right tract. So many variables to play with HAVE FUN.

Hi Ace -

I love those examples you’ve posted.

Sounds like maybe those guys down there in the parking lot haven’t heard…

35

Steve Krajewski said his 7’0" Liddle (with the big black and white checkers on the nose bottom) was asymmetrical. He told that to me at his Mollusk art show. Not sure of the details but I assume it was designed to drive frontside on a right point break but also do hard rail cutbacks on the shoulder.

Jim

36
Quote:

Couple of thoughts:

  1. Asymmetrical boards are a “crutch” in that they make going front or backside easier. Pros are athletes. They don’t need crutches, they already know how to go backside. So that is why they don’t need/use them.

I disagree. I ride backside just as well as I ride frontside. But I ride differently on heel vs toe side by the pure fact that my ankles have flex on my toeside and my ankles do not on my healside. So it’s not a question of ability, but sheer physics as depicted by the human body. I’m NOT a pro surfer (or not in the classical sense of the word) but I was a pro snowboarder (almost made the national team) and I used to ride an asymmetric board because it compensated for the heelside turn being different by sheer physics.

FYI I’m not convinced that Asymmetric surfboards ARE the answer, but I’m also sure that if they work, and are not used by the “pro’s” it has nothing to do with their actual surfing ability.

  1. If you are mass producing them, you’d have to make two versions; one for regulars and one for goofies…no one is going to do that.

This WAS the problem for snowboards, and one of the main reasons the asymmetric snowboard became a thing of the past. But if you’re custom making a board for someone, as we often do, even if most of our boards are CNC cut “models” now, then it makes no differance if that board is symmetrical or not, since it’s custom shaped.

  1. Not sure but they don’t look like good boards for computer designing or milling.

That makes no difference. You can cut anything CNC :wink:

  1. Because of 3. they would be the ultimate custom board. That might save the custom board building industry if they went large scale.

Well this is true… the fact that the factor of asymmetry opens up a whole slew of new variables ( not just a simple goofy and regular issue) would probably mean that it’d be neer impossible to mas produce them. I think it’d be far more complex than just saying "we offer A, B and C assym models in goofy and regular. Two riders may like the exact same toeside of the board and want totally different heelsides. So now you’ve made it 4x harder to produce a “stock model” than before. It might just save the “custom shaping” industry.

IF it works lol.

  1. Just a guess but I don’t think there is a “large scale” market here.

Why not? If its better its better. It might not be, in which case, moot point. But if its really better… then why not? Problem however, will be point 4 as you pointed out.

  1. Asymmetrical boards would be the ultimate playground for Sways; a whole pack of backyarders doing all the R&D for the industry!

LOl… yep.

Fun isn’t it.

Obviously a lot of people prior to this have put a lot of thought into it, and those that have tried it seem to swear by it. To me, the theory seems sound. The practice of the other great shapers is testament that the theory works (at least to some degree), so I still think its odd that we’re not seeing one single pro surfer on them.

Here is an interesting anecdote for you. In the early 1970’s a sprint kayaker invented a paddle blade that was shaped like an aeroplane wing. He swore by it. His friends swore by it. None of the pro’s even considered it - they were as set in their ways as you can imagine. Until the late 1980’s when finally, a pro kayaker who was ranking between 10 and 15th place (and had been for a decade) made the switch. The following world championships he won… by a mile. But here is the proof of the pudding (proof it wasn’t just better training). The following year, ALL the pro’s had made the switch, and the guy was 11th again! Now not a single Olympic kayaker uses anything but a wing blade, but it took 20 years from its invention to be used by the pro’s.

All this says is that: just because the pro’s are not using it, does not make it non functional. Pro’s, often, have too much invested to take the risk of trying something new and untried. Only someone with nothing to loose is likely to take that first jump.

Food for thought.

Corran

37

ACE – “I used to get laughed at pretty good carrying em across the beach. I got used to that and realized if you are not being laughed at in the parking lot you are NOT on the right tract.”

Ha! One of my first boards was unusual, and I remember some teenage looking guys asking if it worked – I told ‘em it flew (Because with two ¾” deep channels, it did.) – The one goes, “Yeah, it looks like a piece of shit.” I just laughed.

CarveNalu – “Ha ha! This is classic. Here’s the cool thing about being a shaper. You can do whatever the hell you want just because you FEEL like it and it doesn’t matter what people think of it.”

Amen! See above, and my latest board… Exactly… How I feel. But then again….

LeeV – “Asymmetrical boards are a “crutch””

Ah Ha!!! No wonder you guys gave me dirty looks at Sway ’07… I didn’t even know I was cheating… Ha!

JohnM. – “Sounds like maybe those guys down there in the parking lot haven’t heard…”

So, Is I OK to hate you guys a little bit… Ha! “Outa sight, outa mind!” I get worried some one will see me driving out from my “secret spot.”

Suffice to say – I love this stuff. And, I think Allan G. has a good thought there… as a matter of fact, I just remember thinking about that old board from above… Just to “F” with people I made the nose at an asymmetrical angle.

So many possibilities, so little time, money, surf, etc.

Man, makes me think… If only you could know there was reincarnation, then if you could know that, and that you may remember what you knew… Then maybe next time I could start on all this stuff out of the gate…

TaylorO

38

Hi Blane, do you have any comments about the way the board rode? I think an asymmetrical board makes a lot of sense. Unless you’re really low to your board, the frontside turn is always going to be different from a backside turn. And that gets more complicated if you’re surfing a break going backside or frontside. The way our feet are designed puts the weight/strength in different areas if we’re pushing with our heels or toes.

I would change the outline of the tail as much as I would the tail end, maybe even mess with the rail rocker some. Like splitting 2 boards in half and then gluing up the different halves together. Only thing in common would be the center rocker line and thickness.

Oh, I’m seeing a lot more guys with your SUPs in town.

Aloha, Harry

39
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Hi Blane, do you have any comments about the way the board rode? Oh, I’m seeing a lot more guys with your SUPs in town.

Aloha, Harry

Howzit Harry!

I have a certain feel I’m looking for frontside and backside. On my frontside I liked the way you could really lay into the bottom turn like a pintail rail always does… That would be a toe turn for me. On the frontside cutbacks or backside bottom turns I like the more square tail so it did accomplish the feelings I liked. I’m ready to play around more with the concept of it all…

As far as my boards turning up in more places feel free to set anyone straight abusing the paddle power.

Aloha,

Blane

40

I also like the look of this tail.

Here is one of my boards that is a few years old now that has an asymmetrical shape. I love this board and the tail really makes a difference on the board as it is 10’ 2" longboard and this tail really helps the cutbacks.

I used to shape a lot of asymmetrical boards when I lived at J-Bay and loved everyone of them. I think they are really fun to ride!

But more importantly I think they are really fun to shape. On the board in this photo the one side is quite different than the other even the V in the tail is different. The squaretail side has way more V! People sure have a hard time figuring it out when it is being carried down to the beach and people are always coming over to find out what is going on with it. Some people even wonder if a shark took a bite out of it, ha!

But there is one thing about these asymmetrical boards that we should probably not tell people, they are way easier to shape than a normal board. Why you ask? Well both sides are different for the majority of the board, especially the rails so you don’t have to spend as much time worrying about whether the board is symmetrical or not, because it isn’t!

When I shape them I treat each half of the board as a separate board and think about them based on that, the nose is typically the only place where they become symmetrical.

NOTE: the board in this photo has a lot more things going on besides having an asymmetrical shape. It has a step deck, it also has a deep channel through the nose.

But it works really well, just an effortless board to surf. I probably don’t ride it as much as I should but whenever I do it is a blast.

This thread has me all excited about shaping another one soon!

BTW, this one was shaped for Hanalei and I’m a natural foot surfer so the shape is oriented for that setup. I did it to improve the cutbacks and backside surfing on the board. It was also built in the pre-ProBox days :slight_smile:

-Robin