Barnfield on Rail Volume

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Among good surfers I find that we rarely talk about the actual shape of the rail, all our time is invested in getting the volume correct.  I will be the first to acknowledge that rail shape is an important aesthetic feature in an attractively built board, but its worth in the area of function, though respectable, is often over-emphasized.    

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hmm, on second reading, I cannot agree with this statement. Bottom edge, length of edge, bottom corners, sharp or dull, and bottom radii are VASTLY important. Equal to if not more important than volume.

I've completely altered the ride characteristics of my boards changing the bottom edge geometry alone, no volume change. And I have both thin railed and full railed similar class boards that I like.

To each his own I guess.

Havaard, I don't think there is any "standard", but I use one inch from rail apex as the volume of a rail. If you can include that in your software that would be very good.

For me - very important topic - I’d have to say this is the area that is my greatest challenge now. Rail volume and how thick it should be in the middle compared to say 18" from tail and nose. Different depending on wave size, power etc. Rail templates are priceless for learning - the learning never stops!

I know of no way to measure rail volume EASILY, and I didn’t mean to suggest that I had done any such measurements - just suggesting a way to accurately COMPARE rail volumes.

The next question - where does the rail begin and end - is even more difficult to answer than how to measure it’s volume (along different lengths of the board). I would argue that the true rail of a board goes in about 2" from the apex. Further in than that and you’re looking more at the bottom or deck than the rail.

Wow. talk about parallax, i have been working on rail volume calculations over the last couple days without seeing this thread! i believe i have the simple formula to calculating it. i need a couple more days to test it, as to the question of where the rail starts and ends is relative to board width in the centre. ie a 18" wide shortboard rail will be approx 1" in and a 23" longboard would be around 2" in on a old school 50/50 rail…

JohnMellor,

Moving rail volume works a treat.  I’m of the opinion that wide point, rocker low point and rail foiling should be manipulated to tune boards.  I personally like my wide-point and rocker low point at centre and rail foil forward.  This gives me gun style paddle in and drive, but short board arcs.

 

Haarvard,

You’re a credit to the community.

 

Here’s one way of checking rail volume.

But I’m not about to sink my EPS rails in the water to get the water displacement.

I will tell you that the weight of the core on a 7’x23.5"x2 1/4"(different board to the pic) is 1lb 6 oz and the rails are  each 1.7 oz.  The core is around 1.5lb/ft3 (can’t remember exact foam used).  You can get approximate volume from this.

Looking at the above ratio of core to rails 18:1.7, it seems to me that the question of rail volume should be reclassified as one of rail diameter/flow (because the volume of rails (at a factor of 10) is almost immaterial relative to the core).  Sure the rails want to bob out of the water, but this is likely to result from its size and shape rather than bouyancy because we’re operating at speed and the water flow is generating lift (or not) (depending on rail shape)

Red_boards' comment is along the lines of what I've been thinking lately: People talk about rails in terms of displacement and buoyancy, but shouldn't we be talking about the effect on water flow? Are thin rails not easier to "sink" because they have less surface area? Isn't that the main reason why rail geometry is so important - because it changes the downward facing wetted surface area?  I expect that, because we're talking about flow rather than displacement, water flowing over the deck assists in sinking the rail, rather than causing the board to want to cork-up. Actually, I think that we're really talking about a mix between displacement and flow effects - a pivot turn on a long board is almost exclusively about buoyancy, and I expect that a carve on a tow-in board on a huge wave is almost exclusively about planing surfaces.

That’s what I’m talking about when I say you have to keep both factors in mind… volume and shape… because they have, to a great degree, independent effects. Add to that the FLOW of water… and not only that, the SPEED of that flow. For example, a low volume rail that’s knifey will release water like a hard edged modern rail, but only at certain speeds.

Here’s something I wrote about water flow…

Water flows in almost all directions along a surfboard’s rail. First and foremost, water flows along the rail from nose to tail as the board slices through the water’s surface while in trim or during a turn. In fact, while water may flow along only a small portion of the rail at any given time, namely the back half or third of rail leading into the tail, this lateral flow makes up the primary movement of water along the rail/water interface. Water may flow only under this portion of the rail, or may wrap part way, or in some cases, fully around the rail and onto the deck, depending upon the rail’s shape and volume. Still, the flow of water along the rail from where the rail first engages the wave face, until it releases from under the board out the tail area, must be designed so that turbulence, drag, and release are all controlled and manipulated to attain the desired goal.

 

Water also flows upward under the bottom of the rail as water molecules rise up the face of the wave, which creates a lifting force under the rail. This water interacts with the rail at varying vector angles, depending upon the speed of the board and wave. In sailing, the angle of the wind interacting with the sail is changed by the speed of the moving boat. This combination of relative motions produces what is referred to as “apparent wind,” and may be very different from the “true wind” if the boat is traveling fast enough. A similar condition exists between water flowing along the rail, and the speed of the board and wave. If, for the sake of illustration, we hold the speed of the wave constant, we can see how at higher **board **speeds, the net vector angle of the upward flow into the rail’s bottom is tilted at a greater angle toward the tail, and becomes closer to parallel with the plane of the rail. At lower board speeds, the net flow is closer to vertical, or more perpendicular to the plane of the rail. However, if we hold board speed constant, we will see an opposite effect when we look at wave speed. At higher **wave** speeds, the net flow vector upward into the bottom of the rail is more vertical and perpendicular to the plane of the rail – faster wave speeds require water to rise up the face more rapidly. But at lower wave speeds, the net flow is more horizontal along the rail while the board trims, as slower waves require water molecules in the face of the wave to rise more slowly.

 

Water also flows into the rail, from apex toward the stringer. If the path of a single water molecule is followed as it first interacts with the rail apex, it leads from that point to some other point on the deckside of the rail if it rises, or some other point below the rail apex if it sinks, until it is released. Again, the water flows at some angle along the rail, but still moves inward from the rail apex. Here, the shape of the rail, particularly on the deck side, helps determine the path water will follow as it travels at some angle inward and back along the rail. Water also travels inward from the rail apex as a board moves laterally, or slides, particularly ahead of the widepoint as the tail is pushed ahead of the nose, and the nose is forced to slide into the wave face laterally as the board pivots under the rider’s front foot. During these types of snaps or tail slides, the nose rail is abruptly forced into the wave face, and both the shape and volume of the rail determines, at least to some degree, what happens next – rail shape may force the nose to rise or drop as it slips into the wave face, while rail volume determines the amount of resistance the nose will incur, as a larger volume rail along the nose will not allow the nose to sink as deeply as a thinly foiled nose rail. Similarly, a thicker nose rail will tend to pop back out of the face easier than a thinly foiled nose rail, as the added volume translates into added buoyant force.

 

The flow of water along, into, and up under the rail, combined with the varying speeds of the wave and board, creates a complicated and dynamic condition that is for all practical purposes in constant flux. Still, among all of this seeming chaos, there can be order. The challenge of the designer-shaper is to create a sense of “equilibrium within the chaos” for the rider, where water flowing in a multitude of directions around the rail can be used deliberately to achieve a desired result… to make the board rise, fall, trim, change speed, release, slide, or even fly. Therefore, when designing a rail for a given board, the shaper must keep in mind the type of wave – is it a thick, ledgy peak, or a thin, peeling wall? Is it a slow, mushy sandbar wave, or firing pointbreak? The shaper also needs to consider the goals of the rider - does the rider want a board that is stable and catches waves easily, or one that is more loose, and suited more for vertical, aerial-oriented surfing? Does the rider want to set a line and walk to the tip, or do hard, driving turns out on the open face?

 

 

Crafty-You are not disagreeing with me as I did not write the quote.  Reread the original post.  It is a quote from an article written by Bill Barnfield for Surfing Magazine in the '80's.  I will say that the article is exactly what I hoped it would be ---thought provoking.   Having said that; it occurs to me that many of those who have posted comments have completly missed the point of the article.

Crafty-You are not disagreeing with me as I did not write the quote.  Reread the original post.  It is a quote from an article written by Bill Barnfield for Surfing Magazine in the '80's.  I will say that the article is exactly what I hoped it would be ---thought provoking.   Having said that; it occurs to me that many of those who have posted comments have completly missed the point of the article.

You are correct, I just did the standard thing and clicked the quote button. I read the article three times, it was thought provoking. As far as content, I agreed with most of it, but not all of it.

But If you were expecting the conversation to go a certain direction you need to be more involved in it. The reality is, this is Swaylocks and it rarely does - its the ugly side affect of international free speech.

Good article. Thanks for taking the time to type it and post it here.

Maybe the conversation would have gone in the "right" direction if it was titled differently.

"Barnfield on Deck/Rail Contour" or "Volume Distribution" or something like that.

If provoking thought was the goal, the one thing that sticks out in my mind is the part about rail volume being more important than rail shape. The provoking thought I got was that of disagreement. I believe this is partly/mostly due to the fact that he's on the North Shore and myself and most others here are not. North Shore board rails are generally are rounder, softer and less edgy for foregiveness and control in really fast conditions. Much of the rest of the world is seeking more speed in average conditions, so the bottom half of the rail shape means more, IMO. If was surfing the North Shore and ordering or making boards, I probably wouldnt want too much variety in rail shape. I would want more consistency and foregiveness - KISS on the rail shape.

 

 Crafty        No harm, no foul.  But you are right about the thought provoking.  While the article may have points of disagreeement for some, the discussion of those points is lively and a good thing.  My thought was along the lines of focus on Bills statemnts about rail volume as opposed to rail shape.  Seems to me that the focus was on rail volume and had little to do with rail shape.  But it is interesting that the discussion of the article by others immediatly turned to rail shape and replicating various rail shapes as opposed to rail volume and its relationship to center thickness.  I would say the reason being that there are a number of people who frequent this site that are hobbyists or beginning shapers.  By that I mean that an aesthetic or pretty and consistent rail is one of the first things our "Bros" look at when we take our early shapes down to the beach for critique.  A good looking, consistent rail is also one of the hardest things for a begiining shaper to replicate and often the most critisized part of a shape by others.  Hence the concern and grafitation towards that part of the process by novices.   That is evidenced by the many threads that are started on this site by beginners requesting help in cutting a nice consistent rail.  For my part though I was more interested in the relationship that Bill placed on center thickness and how it related to rail volume.  I have never heard or seen anything written that laid that relationship out so plainly.  Just my two cents.  I'm really not a person that get too technical when it comes to displacement quotients, calculations etc.  If fact when I shape I take minimal measurements and those are only done to keep me within the boundaries of the desired shape.  My design ideas are based on things I have seen and surfed over the years that I know work.  You would think that would put me in the "copy cat" camp.  But my boards always come out with their own expressive quirks.  Bill's way more technical than I could ever be and a great teacher.  The thought he puts into the whole process is amazing to me.  Lowel 

I think the reason rail shape gets so much more attention is because its the one design element of the board we can truly feel with our hands when we hold a board. Most people cant feel rocker, deck dome, fin set etc with their hands. When I hold a new board, right away the feel in my hands takes over all senses, at least for a few seconds. We can feel volume too, but geometry is more visceral.

Btw, my approach to shaping is like yours. Its part science and part art. Mostly science when I design, mostly art when I shape.

For the average working person, how often do we get to produce functional art? Not very often and I cherish it when I do. Its the best thing about shaping. And shaping the rails is the best part about shaping. By far. 

I’ve had guys ask me just to shape their rails. I’m like, “sure!” Plouging out all that foam foiling it out is a drag. Rails are fun!

Good points Lowel - Esp. about what others think…  I could hardly care less.  It was rails that started me on my personal quest to understand what does and does not matter when it comes to board function.

I use to repair all my rail dings to near perfection when I first started surfing.  When I started surfing rock reefs a lot, I got impatient with the steps, and started riding my boards once they were water tight…   Even with fairly radical warbles on the rail the boards seemed the same to me.  So I started to Ask Dale S. about this.  His reply was basically, some things matter more than others.

I often have less than perfect rails on my brand new boards these days, and I’ve had “bro’s” point out how funny it looks…  Works good for me though.  I’v given up on trying to educate them.  As I’ve said, either my boards are really good, and I’m an average surfer, or I’m a great surfer and my boards suck… Ha!  They won’t admit to either, so I’m on my own.

A friend of mine bought a used board which looked so-so to me. Certainly not my cup of tea, but not a bad shape. Well, my friend is going on about how good it is, 'cuz the rails look so nice, and look at those pin lines, etc., and he says I could borrow it to make a template off it…  Anyway…

I have found this thread to shed some light on things I’ve only vaguely thought about - so it’s been good for me.

I like this thread…

I’m still thinking about my “most magic” board, and the 2.25" thick rails, but the “roundness” of the rails sort of ends before what would be the bottom of the curve (Picture cutting a clock vertically from 1 to 5, with the 3 being the apex of the rail.), so, while not “sharp,” there is an angle before the curve starts, and I think it helps with some “release” type action with out being as much as the tucked edges I’ve ridden before, and, I think I like the characteristics of the “broader” face of the rail interacting with the wave face, as I’ve made more recent boards with “thinner” 1 7/8", yet fully round rails, which are not as “user friendly” too me.

I’m stoked because I feel like I’ve stumbled upon a happy medium.

Aloha Everysurfer and others

This thread slipped past me earlier, sorry I am coming in so late on it now.  Firstly, thanks McDing for digging that up and posting it.

Your comments above are so accurate.  As we have all noticed there isn’t any ongoing design discussions in the magazines anymore.  It is all style and very little substance.  When Surfing magazine asked me to contribute an ongoing series of monthly articles on surfboard design, I was pretty excited but also very wary as these things are never managed in ways that best benefit the consumers but rather the bottom line of the magazines.

The original agreement was that I would have a full page every issue that I could also use graphics and photos in to better define and clarify the subjects discussed.  That would still allow for about 1,000 words and as such the articles could have strong presentation and depth of information.  By the time it got going it was reduced to 500 words and no pictures or graphics.  This made if very difficult to approach any design subject in any depth and forced me to be way too brief and often use language that wasn’t as easy to understand.

I have joked about this before, but I used to get two kinds of letters.  The first type were ones thanking me and complimenting the depth and breadth of the subjects discussed.  The second type were ones saying the words used were too big and the subjects were too confusing.  The magazines were most worried about the latter.  Seemed to me they wanted something more like this.  …    

Today we will discuss board thickness.  Thicker boards tend to be thicker then thinner boards while thinner boards are generally thinner then thicker boards.  Stay tuned because next issue we will discuss board lengths and how longer boards tend to be longer then shorter boards.

Exciting stuff!  No?  Luckily we have the Internet now so one’s design knowledge isn’t restricted by the Major Magazine’s “FILTRATION” processes.

Those columns lasted a couple of years but the magazine never could get a grasp of the real value in them or the subjects discussed.  The space was seen as wasted, since it couldn’t be directly turned into revenue for the magazines.  And yet, even decades later, well known shapers continually tell me how much they benefited from those articles and how it helped inspire and shape their early interest in surfboard design and construction.

The payoff for these kinds of subjects being in magazines is not immediate economic rewards but rather the long term nurturing of curious young minds into being the new leaders and master craftsmen of the next generation.  But that kind of thinking is probably well beyond the concerns of modern mainstream media these days.

 

 

Aloha Crafty.

This comment of mine has to be take with the mindset of 25+ years ago.  At that time (and still some do) people would ask for a “(insert famous shaper name here) Rail” or “(famous shaper name here) fin”.  Usually this would be based on the “SHAPE” of the rail with little regard to volume of that shape and how that volume was way more important to the board “fitting” the rider then the shape was.

For sure the shape is necessary and important but only for those who are requesting the shape because they know it is suitable for them and their waves.  Not because it “looks” like a certain shape someone has told them is the correct shape.

I was referring to my world class team riders and emphasizing that we focused more on getting the volume of foam in the rail as being the first consideration in a board “well fitted” for the rider, rather then the latest “cool rail shape”.  Once the proper volume was established for the rider, equal concern and detail was applied to the rails shape, to make sure the board best fit the wave conditions.  

My primary purpose, in most of those articles for Surfing Magazine, was to rattle everyone’s entrenched thinking and to get them freshly thinking about things that they may never have considered much before.  Most surfers and shapers are primarily driven by what they SEE and what they HEAR.  Very few can get beyond the drama of those powerful influences, to begin noticing, let alone understanding the subtleties and less visible features that really make the bulk of the differences in how boards work.  Guys will agonize over the tail shape, because they can easily see it, but will know nothing about the rocker amounts or proportions of that curve and how much more it will hugely effect the boards function compared to the tail shape.

Volume is another one of those, nearly invisible things, that powerfully effect a boards ride… yet people will strain over the look of the rail and totally miss the importance of volume because they cannot see it easily.  Of course 25-30 years ago common rail volumes were vastly different then today and those thicker boards offered a much wider diversity of possible rail volumes. When you have more volume then you really need, the shape is being smothered by the excess volume and won’t matter much till you correct the volume issues.  Since today’s board’s volumes have matured toward the minimalist end of the spectrum such that excess volume is no longer a problem, I probably wouldn’t write that article in quite the same way today… as I wouldn’t be trying to shake people loose from the entrenched bulky standard of 25+ years ago.  

Hope that helps clarify my comments.  As I agree with you Crafty that details in Rail shape, especially things like edges can hugely effect a board’s ride.  But if the rail has way too much volume, you may never get past that to feel the details of the rails shape.  I should also note that the same applies to rails that don’t have enough volume, but that is another whole discussion!

I liked the article!  thanks bill.

I am in agreement with Crafty(though I think Bill is saying the same thing also), but I’ll put it in my own words.

Rail volume is a meaningless parameter without considering the shape of the rail…and here’s why:  The only volume that matters is the volume that is touching water.  This applies to the whole board, not just rails.  

I stuck a sealed 5 liter Tupperware container on the nose top of my board.  I dunked it in a displacement tank and sure enough my board went from 30 liters to 35 liters.  So following Spicoli logic, I figured that the board is going to paddle so much better now.  I tried it and the strangest thing happened, the board road the exact same way! and the paddling was the same!  Since the tupperware container was only displacing air, it had no effect on the board.

The shape of the rail (especially the bottom half) WILL determine how much of the rail is in contact with water.  Precisely two things: 1)the radius of curvature throughout the rail 2)the angle created by the discontinuity of curvature at an edged rail (the angle created by the upper and lower tangent lines at the discontinuity in curvature–the edge)

As the radius of curvature gets smaller and/or the angle of the edge gets sharper, the water will break off the rail at a lower point, and everything above the water breaking point is totally meaningless from a fluids stand point (yes, structurally the upper volume matters).  So if you have a fat 2.5" rail and a 2" rail, but because of rail geometry, the water is breaking off at only 1/2" from the bottom in both boards, the boards will feel the same (if everything else about the board is identical).