bert burger , greg loehr , mike sabin ....

General Discussion
1

and others doing wood veneer , vacuum bagged eps / epoxy thrusters …

I was just wondering how thin and narrow you have gone down to , in say a 5’11 thruster , for , say , a 5’10 [178cms] , 155lbs [70kgs] guy around 20-30 years old , who is pretty fit , rides polyurethane thrusters all the time , and surfs reasonably well ?

I ask , because I had a dream this morning …I was talking to a local shaper , and he was now making really nice looking , thin , rockered thrusters …in eps. [This was in the dream …in real life he makes nice looking, thin , rockered thrusters in polyurethane foam.]

The boards he had made looked to be something like Shane Herring and Shane Powell’s boards in 1991. [Which , from memory, went as small as 5’10 x 17 1/2 x 2 " ? …and they were polyurethane / polyester boards .]

hi Greg !

I remember reading about and seeing photos of a guy called Bill Hartley [thanks , Mark !] that you shaped boards for , yes ? He RIPPED on “too rockered , too narrow, and too thin” boards [or so the “other” surfers said at the time ! ] .This “may” have been in the 80s , I think , before Slater and some other pros did the same , from 1991.

Well, again , the question out of all this is …

" how thin and narrow and short have you guys gone with the eps and wood veneer and vacuum bagging process boards , for guys , say , in the 5’8-5’10 , 60-70kgs range , who ride up to head high waves on a regular basis ? [the waves have a bit of power at times ]"

thanks !

…I look forward to hearing your experiences on this …(and , obviously , bill barnfield , ‘silly’ , meecrafty , ?oneula ?, and everyone else who makes these boards on a regular basis , too …)

cheers !

ben , west oz .

[yep, a “non-photo post” of mine, for a change !]

2

couldnt say really cuz i like the thicker boards for beach breaks cuz they paddle better through broken water

but for clean ideal conditions perhaps something like like

5 10" 19 1/4 by 2

you could even go a touch thinner/wider

you really got to try a few boards out though

eg. at 6’ 3" and 85 kg ,

19 3/4 wide is about my limit if i want to do decent hacks any wider and i start to have trouble

i surf pretty heavy on my board and some little guys have trouble driving my boards unless they have a more carving stlye

its hard to say cuz im not building at that size

but i reckon 19 1/2 wide and it would start feeling a bit harder to turn for you

basically it goes like this

with modern design ideas etc

popular thought says that if you get older ,fatter or more unfit you should ride longer boards

thats fine in overhead clean conditions

but if the waves are smalller or marginal

shorter/wider /thicker boards are just plain easier to surf

and far more fun(thats why fish are so popular)

eg i tried a 6 8 2 1/4 rounded pin the other

very similar to what a lot of shortboard rider my age or weight might ride

i found it to hard to turn on smaller waves

hard to paddle because of the excess nose rocker

hard to catch waves because of the pulled in tail

my 6 2 flyer shape outperformed it 100% in every way

i dont mind that guys ride these type of boards though cuz it means more waves for me

and at 35 i need every advantage i can get

i can outpaddle and get more waves then guys ten to 15 years younger than me

funnily enough. although the thin compsands work amazingly well

im yet to find one that works for me as an allrounder

ive got one on the rack at the moment that is the same dimensions as my favourite allrounder

though this time it will 2 1/8 thick instead of 2 3/4

so ill let you know the diferences in a few months

Mike Sabin told me his thinner ones are basically just as good except for paddling in broken water

i guess on a point break it wouldnt matter

i have a unreal thin board

at 2 1/8 thick or less

and it goes great

though i found the fcs fins a bit lacking in hold and to flexy

so when i stick some decent fins on it

it may improve

again this board paddles as good as a standard poopee

and evens the playing feild to much

so i only ride it when its not crowded

3

My current longboard is 9’ x 23" wide x sub 2" at the concave. It has the fcs twins with the small trailer. Thanks to help from Christain (cj3) it has classic shortboard rails. Its one strange looking board (I call it the mutant jellyfish), but it goes. I’m happy enough with this one that I’m now changing my emphasis from the “Bert Board” to the “Benny Board”.

4

cant really comment on longboard

but yeah

you and benny have tried a lot of different combinations

when you say the benny board do you mean

2 pound foam?

or are you referring to shape and thickness

5

thanks for your reply Paul ! [and Dan , but I was really after info on under 6’ boards … no offence , mate !]

" i have a unreal thin board

at 2 1/8 thick or less

and it goes great

though i found the fcs fins a bit lacking in hold and to flexy

so when i stick some decent fins on it

it may improve

again this board paddles as good as a standard poopee …"

what are the other dimensions on that one , please , mate ?

Now , my second question for people …

without the wood veneer , are the boards NOTICEABLY less durable / strong ?

have you made [m]any with just thin[nish] eps , and lots of layers of glass for strength , or do you find that [would] make/s them too heavy for your liking , guys ?

  cheers  



    ben
6

the skin isnt really a veneer

its a sandwhich skin and the core of the skin is at least 2mm thick.

the thicker the core of the skin

the stronger the board.

the denser the core of the skin the more impact resistant

they are undisputably the lightest and strongest boards available

my dimensions on that board are 6 4 long 19 3/4wide 2 1/8 thick 15 tail

ben

i will be doing some plain polystyrene boards with extra glass

but im not expecting them to be as good

im doing them as retro fish to try and make some cash

its because most surfers arent even interested in trying my compsands

so i intend to make some white ones just for some cred and some money to finance developing the compsands.

also the blanks are hell cheap

meanwhile me and a few other enlightened surfers are gunna stick with the compsands.

you can honestly jump on them and cant pressure dent them with your fingers

i slammed my latest nose first into a shingle bank on a three hollow foot wave and all it got was some bruizing and a chip on the nose

7

"ben

i will be doing some plain polystyrene boards with extra glass

but im not expecting them to be as good

im doing them as retro fish to try and make some cash

its because most surfers arent even interested in trying my compsands

so i intend to make some white ones just for some cred and some money to finance developing the compsands."

…thanks paul !

let us know how that goes eh ? …And , please can you post piccies of them ?

Also , WOULD you make one [a fish for yourself] out of that , or would yours be a ‘compsand’ fish ? …it would be nice to do the same shape in both , eh ? and compare the lifespan for us [a la 'oneula’s thread]

  cheers , mate !



    ben

…I hope Greg , Bert , and others will weigh in on this thread , too …

…mr . sabs ? you there , please ??

8

yeah i will be making a fish first

its a copy of a mandala plainshape and rocker(when i say copy i mean rough copy)

then i can whip one out quick

give it a go and see if i like them

theres a pretty fat point break around here that it should go well on

incedentaly i am building a compsand fish at the moment(2 1/4 thick)

the rocker and plane shape were identical to the mandalas

just the tail was pulled in more

what a fluke eh

just goes to show

it really isnt rocket science!

just got to get some cash together for another block of foam

blew some serious coin on a new pump this month

9

Hi ya BEN

this one is 6’1" x 18 3/8" x 1 15/16"

i built it to give some of the smaller guys here a go at a compsand

Im 82kgs 6’2" and love riding this board

its really not that hard to paddle and its real easy to duck dive

oh and by the way im 51 in december

you just gotta act like a grom and go hard out

Mike

10

Dan - convergent evolution, my friend. The one I just finished - which you’ll see down south in 3 more weeks - is old school rocker & template, but super pinched on the rails. And in the interest of keeping the flex-cancelling deck dome to a minimum, at least as much thickness (side to side) came out through belly in the bottom as it did dome in the deck. Seriously, the board is 3" thick and the thickest part of my applied rail stock was 1.125". Its almost a noserider/hull. If it had a down rail in the tail, it would be. You’re going to trip.

I patterned it a bit after the Pearson CJ Nelson (thanks for the conversation, Carl O!) but with a slightly pulled-in nose. Actually, the CJ of a couple iterations ago - no concave in the nose and no severe cup in the tail. But, true to form as a hull, it is a bit of a barker with a pivot fin but comes alive with a Greenough-style flex. And yeah - STAY OFF THE TAIL! (Thanks for the hints in that other thread, LeeV :slight_smile: ).

Chipper - sometimes Roy is right in his insistence on accurate semantics. A hull is indeed different than a stubbie and please don’t call a balsa sandwich skin a ‘veneer’. Veneer, by definition, is almost the same as a disguise or a false front; measurable balsa wood in a sandwich skin is a structural member used for construction & application characteristics first, and appearance second. As luck would have it, the best (available) piece for strength, weight, ride, and durability happens to be beautiful as well. At this point, I’ve tried enough alternatives to know that even if it were ugly as sin, I’d use it over anything else I’ve found…and as for derision directed towards ‘hull’ boards… all I can say is you need to reserve comment until you’ve tried one. I have an Aus. stubbie - you’ve seen the photos. It is nothing like the phantom known as a hull. Ask Cheyne - his & McCoy’s behave the way they do - as single fins - largely due to the same design dymanics as the Liddle/Anderson/Putnam/Melville/etc. hulls do. Different shape nose, sure, but take a look - an objective, critical, open-minded look - at everything from the first 16" back and you’ll see the similarities in a heartbeat.

Sorry to get ot - I’ve just had a fun week on my Bert-construction, Greg-resin, Sabs-inspired, DanB-approved, Liddle & Greenough-emulated new surfboard :slight_smile:

11

I reckon it would be good if accurate comparisons of bouyancy could be made. This type of question crops up a fair bit, but no one to my knowledge has ever measured the characteristic in question (how well will it float me? I’m 83kg etc etc) or knows how to.

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=282108;#282108

12

Ive always had a bit of a theory with regards to board floatation

a big mal floats you totally and most are easy to paddle

the fun boards etc quite often when you lie on them some of your body is imersed most are pigs to paddle (not all)

shortboards quite a bit of your body is imersed yet many are easy to paddle

could it be that when more of your body is imersed when you paddle you are infact causing less drag

the six footer in the photo i posted earlier floats me way less yet the board is real easy to paddle

my guess is that the total board and me imersed in the water is a better shape for low drag low speed operations

the good thing with this board is that the transition through to planing speed when catching a wave is good with no tend to bog down whatso ever

Mike

13

thanks for your input Sabs !

great as always to hear from you !!

you’re 51 ?

geez mate , you don’t look a day over 60 ! [jokes] …greenough "old man of the sea " looks…( “the rugged sailor man type” …that gets the chicks , I’m told ?)

… but your wife looks so much YOUNGER ! [Must be her English complexion and pedigree !]

" Veneer, by definition, is almost the same as a disguise or a false front; measurable balsa wood in a sandwich skin is a structural member used for construction & application characteristics first, and appearance second."

sorry for the lack of political correctedness , ben …all I have to go on in this backwater are two bert burger sunovas I have seen , and because they were , unfortunately for my ‘research’ , in one piece , I couldn’t really tell what was going on inside …if they were a sandwich , a burger , or maybe even a souvlaki …

14

Yes, I agree that level of immersion of the board and surfer significantly affects “paddle ability”. Apart from weight and volume, shape does plays a huge role in all this. It affects planing speeds and planing characteristics. I do not have a detailed understanding of how it all ties in together. There is a lot of science (physics) tied up in this issue. Most of this science has been nutted out over hundreds of years in the field of naval architecture. A complex but highly organized field of study. I am sure surfboard design could take something from this field. I reckon integrating these principles into surfboard design could help improve surfboards and in particular help surfers with getting the right board for them. It would also take a lot of the guesswork out of comparing boards.

I reckon there are basic important dimensions that surfboard producers do not seem too interested in accurately measuring or knowing. I find this hard to understand, considering all the energy that goes into surfboard design and construction. As a simple starting point, weight and volume would reveal much about a board. As my other post said though, the physics of buoyancy contains other factors that I do not really understand. But someone out there would.

This is not meant as a criticism of anyone. The art produced by shapers these days is incredible, the mastery of materials science impressive and the level of detail in construction awesome. I just reckon that applying a bit of this science could help improve the design of surfboards even more and help surfers choose their stick.

15
Quote:

and Dan , but I was really after info on under 6’ boards … no offence , mate !]

None taken - Bert use to say that his longboards were just another board in the quiver and I didn’t really catch what he was talking about. It wasn’t until I sas cj3 surf one of my boards that I really got what he was saying. When you take a longboard down below 10 lbs its closer to a shortboard than it is to a longboard so from my perspective over 2" seems too thick for an eps shortboard.

Ben (Benny1) - I’m looking very forward to seeing what your up to. I plan on having my first single fin ready. I’m especially interested in seeing what you’re doing with the rails.

16

thanks Dan !

“so from my perspective over 2” seems too thick for an eps shortboard."

…interesting comment , I WAS wondering about that , considering shanes powell and herring as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread , rode polyurethane foam boards around and UNDER 2" thick , back in the early 1990s , and Bill Hartley in Florida before them, I read …

… Greg Loehr , are you still around here , please ? I think you would have some good experience / info to share about that , yes ? [please?]

so , back to my original questions now …

how thin and narrow have you guys gone with your ‘sandwich/ burger ’ boards in the 6’ range , then ?

…is THAT one you posted your thinnest / narrowest yet , Sabs ?

Or …how about your son’s one …how thin and narrow was THAT please , mate ?

thanks for the photo , and info , Mike [and others ] …please keep it coming guys !

thanks !

 ben
17

do you know if shane herring ever rode a red board by any chance? :slight_smile:

18

actually id love to make a few tow boards

maybe really thin ones that would be hard to break

i think you could go to 1 3/4 or less

maybe even 1 1/2

who knows

any of you die hard big wave guys in NZ

ill build you a board for free if you try it out at papas

we can work on the design and try some crazy thin shit

and put the weight wherever you want it

shock absorbers ?

waterballast even!

anyone interseted?