I never use additive F in the lam,,
it doesnt make sense to me
just like putting surfacing agent in poly to lam, makes for trouble
clean your brushes and buckets
check your air source for contamination
whats goin on up wind of your place
I cant for the life of me think whats getting in there. Nothing but clean country air round me. Any chemical in the wood preserver on my shed that could have an affect?
I still have a hunch that its bits of solids from add F so will try the hot coat on the bottom tommorow minus the add F. Worst comes to worst, i'll go nuts with the sander to level it a bit and do a poly gloss coat. Have had some success doing this before.
Bummer,
Do some small tests first. One with F and one without, if you think that is the problem. I doubt it. It should be dead flat with an occasional drip at worst.
Ditch the recycled containers.
Use disposable brushes, disposable mixing cups, disposable mixing sticks, disposable gloves, disposable Tyvek suit, disposable respirator or cartridges etc. etc.
It is not environmentally friendly but that is the way it goes.
Good luck.
Edit:I have also had the additive F go a bit funky in cold weather. I just gave it a good shake and mixed it in really good and it was no problem.
Hi -
It appears to me to be contamination.
I notice a fabric inlay(?) under the glass. Is it possible that the fabric is contaminated? I think it is possible for contaminants to rise through curing epoxy and affect subsequent coats. (see below)
I have had coated redwood with epoxy and had fisheye problems. The next coat (after a thorough sanding of first coat) also had fish eyes. After several coats I finally got a clean surface. Everything else was the same so I assume that the contaminant in the wood rose through the epoxy as it cured and affected the next coat.
And yes, do a sample panel with and without Additive F. If your Additive is chunky, heat, stir and run through a strainer. Do your test on a clean surface. Freshly sanded scrap Balsa sheet is good material to run tests. Oily wood like Redwood, etc will introduce new variables.
I have had this happen when I didn’t wipe the whole thing down with DNA. Its a pain, but you sand it all down and try again.
a couple other pointers: use more resin for the hotcoat. too thin of a coat does not help things. babysit it - after you brush it on, watch to see when these spots start showing up and put some more epoxy on them. i have had this sort of thing happen on a fresh lam, especially if you are rushing it. if the lam is still sticky them you need to use more resin or the brush gets sticky and your coat gets pulled thin and you get fisheyes. i like to let the lam cure overnight and then sand with 40 or 60 grit before putting a hotcoat on. much better result doing it this way…good luck!
Additive Shmaditive! Here's the the hot coat on the bottom with no Additive F. A massive improvement with a couple of little fish eyes but easily fixed by going round and dabbing a drop in each one as it gels. This was done on the fresh sanded lam from yesterday and a once over with the hoover to get most of the dust off.
So it must be the the add F. I had good clean resin without the tiny translucent bits that must come from the add f. Would straining the lot fix this or am I just not heating the add f enough. I always use a little syringe to dispense it accurately which thinking about it the stuff always goes cloudy as soon as I suck it up.
nicer looking, for sure
maybe the add f is contaminated
but definetly dont use it in the lam
Awesome save!
I use Add F in every step. About 1/4 to 1/2 capfull for 15 oz of mixed resin. I strain the F. The add F is not the problem.
Stingray
I think johnmellor is on to something. Fabrics in general are treated with sizing from the factory. Before fabrics are used it is a good idea to wash them by machine in only hot water and then iron them before useing.. I allways use yogurt containers washed with palmalive dish soap and rinsed with hot water with no trouble !!
Man, this epoxy business seems like quite a hassle. Poly is just so damn easy to use.
"Here's the the hot coat on the bottom with no Additive F."
There ya go. Looks great!
“Additive Shmadative!” Hahahaha…
I always scratch up my lam with a new sheet of 80 grit on a soft block. Not sanding… scratching. Then twice over with a clean paper towel with DNA. Haven’t had a fisheye in years.
And I always us Add F in the lam and the hotcoat. Measured accurately with a graduated cylinder per the manufacturers specifications.
Always use add F in lams and hotcoat. Only had problems with fisheyes from contaminations. Usually sprayed acrylic somewhere where the sanded board was affected.
If the lam goes over night before hotcoating, I hit it lightly with a fresh 80 grit sandpaper and then clean it with a fresh paper towel and DNA.
You mention doing the coat while the resin in the lam was still sticky. How sticky? Its best when the lam is hard, but still slightly tacky. I have notice a couple of times while trying to rush a repair that if you try to hotcoat while the lam is still actually a bit soft and sticky that the resin does not like to stick to it very well. Could be several reasons why for that …
edit Oh, and yeah, bellow 70 F it gets very slow curing, and below 65 things can start to go funny. Been the bane of my glassing for the last year. I much prefer it when its up around 80.(which is tough to do up here in the north. maybe a few months out of the year) I’ve gotten good enough to do the work during the shortened time, and it means not having to wait long to do next steps. Especially with Kwik Kick.
I have had my fair share of fish eyes, and proper use of additive F is key. Here are a few lessons learned from my failures:
1) Don't filter the stuff through a paper towel!! Either there are contaminants in the paper or it is filtering out an important ingredient. I'm not sure, but the result of doing this was fish eye city.
2) Don't use additive F if the bottle is cloudy and/or there are chunks in it. Warm the bottle in a hot water bath first. That should make everything go gin clear. If not then you should not use it.
I have a theory that you will get a more cloudy mixture if you add warm additive F to a cold resin/hardener mix. I recently started putting my bottles of resin, hardener, and additive F in the sun for about 10 minutes prior to mixing. I wait until all the solids in my additive F melt into the solution, and then commence the mixing process. That process seems to be working Ok for me.
One other thing you may want to check is the syringe that you are using to dispense the additive F. Some plastics dont react well with the chemicals in additive F, and it may be a source of contamination. You don't need to be too precise with additive F. I just pour it into the cap, and then dump it into the pot.
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Could be several reasons why for that ..
*edit* Oh, and yeah, bellow 70 F it gets very slow curing, and below 65 things can start to go funny. Been the bane of my glassing for the last year. I much prefer it when its up around 80.(which is tough to do up here in the north. maybe a few months out of the year) I've gotten good enough to do the work during the shortened time, and it means not having to wait long to do next steps. Especially with Kwik Kick.
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I'd wager that your adhesion problem comes from hotcoating in low temps. That's the only time I've ever had problems with epoxy laminations / fill coats. Climate control is key! Oh, and yes, use Additive F.
Swied, when you ran your Additive F through the paper towel, you likely filtered out the parafin in the solution which seems to add surface tension the epoxy mix and reduce fisheyes.
Here's a link to a guy that glasses when it's cold.
http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/experiences-rr-kwik-kick-epoxy-etc
So I think ive found the solution to my problem:
FILTERING THE RESIN!
Ofcourse. Even when I warm the resin and add F so its perfectley clear, when I add it to the resin, bits of wax always precipitate which im sure cause my outrageous fish eyes. But have just had great results the first time I tried filtering.
Its a bit of a hassle though. What I did was weigh out a small amount of just resin and stir in a generous splash of add F (as some will be filtered out). I then filtered this with a sheet of decal paper. Then weigh out what clean resin+add F mix has come through and top up with resin to the required amount, and only then can the hardener make sweet love to the resin. (they've been apart for so long...)
This is a hassle because: it takes a while, a lot of pots get soiled with resin and cant be reused, and some precious resin is wasted.
Is there a better way of doing this and anyone know where to get paint filter paper as suggested on here?. B&Q and Homebase had never heard of 'em.
Anyway, I hope this might be of help to someone and Im glad to contribute a little to this forum that I have learnt so much from.
Additive F is NOT the problem. Filtering is not the problem. Operator error is the problem.
I have provided two links for proper Resin Research Glassing. One for warm weather...one for cold. Go back and click the links and read the information.
.....
and yes...my friend....I can pull off a killer epoxy glass job with no weird problems.........and I use F
Professor Stingray
Ha I have had similar problems with the Add F. I have never had a hot coat turn out that bad but I notice small imperfections when i get new bottles of Add F. So ill glass 5 or more boards all turn out great. Run out of Add F order new stuff thru fiberglass supply and do a hot coat and looks like crap, the only change is the add F. I am starting to think it needs to sit at like +90 F, for a few hours, if it ever gets to cold at any point of its life. I will need to check out the links stingray posted but im probally going to go with a different Resin in the future. Thinking about trying the Sap entropy epoxy, still need to do more research on it, but it sounds good.