Big guy shortboard help

General Discussion
21

interestingly enough if you go through the resources there is not much there what im on about.

(seen as there so commom and inside the square)

when people start doing these boards they tend to get all funky on the tails and fin setups which is a bit of a step back from the good old eighties thrusters

 

this dudes getting the idea but they need a thruster setup and to be foiled out thinner at the tails and very end of the nose

http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/detail_page.cgi?ID=1836

another one that looks wide for its length

id say this one is closest to where im thinking

http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/detail_page.cgi?ID=1717

soul and power is viable ( personally i dont like longboard nose tho)

http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/detail_page.cgi?ID=1654

anyway not much there really, mainly fish

have look though the archives and see if you can find some of bert burgers boards

they are up to 23 wide and all short high performance board

 

this kneeboard would go off (standup) with the fins setback (and make it a squash tail so your not reapairing it in a few months)

http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/detail_page.cgi?ID=1206

another nice good big guy outline ruined by silly fins and tailshape

http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/detail_page.cgi?ID=1126

 

when you design a board look at nature. sharp points dont realy exist on a dolphin for example

all the sharp bits and wings and channel surfings trends have really held back surfing. ive seen shortboard outline templates from HUIE that were done in the 60s that would work way better then lots of the shit around today if they had three fins instead of one

this one is close. id lose the pins unless i was surfing a barreling wave

actually this one is probably the winner so far

http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/detail_page.cgi?ID=403

oh and you can set your fins back further on a shorter board

 

 

22

Hey paul, im wondering about fin setup in the equation. My twin keel is 6'2'' x 22, i can get close to vert, but it hangs in the lip, unless the wave is super fast breaking. However, i found that on my 7'10'' ( sort of a nugget shape ), when i surf it as a thruster, it flies out of the lip, doesnt hang at all. Awesome release. As a 2+1, it tends to hang a bit.

My question i guess is, if i go short, wide and thick ( and forward widepoint ), BUT, pull the tail in a bit, and use a thruster setup, will it help a big guy ( im 90kg, 5'9'' ) manouvere it better??.

 

AND also, my twin keel has a heavy glass job, how about a lighter glass job as well ( 4+44, instead of 6+66 )

 

Cheers

23

[quote="$1"]

Hey paul, im wondering about fin setup in the equation. My twin keel is 6'2'' x 22, i can get close to vert, but it hangs in the lip, unless the wave is super fast breaking. However, i found that on my 7'10'' ( sort of a nugget shape ), when i surf it as a thruster, it flies out of the lip, doesnt hang at all. Awesome release. As a 2+1, it tends to hang a bit.

My question i guess is, if i go short, wide and thick ( and forward widepoint ), BUT, pull the tail in a bit, and use a thruster setup, will it help a big guy ( im 90kg, 5'9'' ) manouvere it better??.

 

AND also, my twin keel has a heavy glass job, how about a lighter glass job as well ( 4+44, instead of 6+66 )

 

Cheers

[/quote]

Hey Mark

This board flys.

Its the shortest board I own and I only get to ride it in small surf when my daughter lets me.

6'8" x 21 1/2 x 2 7/8 single concave to vee with a slight double through the vee thruster set up.

6 oz bottom 6+6 oz deck epoxy on poly

No problems with bogging, missing waves or hang ups.

I'm 6'0 100kgs

My largest is a 11'6" SUP and I have 7 other boards in between.

My two favorite boards are my 7'6" thruster and my 9'2" longboard.

Oh yer and my SUP.

Cheers

 

 

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24

Dear Paul, I think we surf different waves and/or with a different style. I agree with you on many things, but tailshape for me is a swallow because of the double pin for grip in steep faces and I used to bicycle a lot so I have strong legs. Squashes and rounds tend to bump out of turns for me, maybe because I push too hard. That’s why I went from thrusters to quads about 6 years ago, to give my wide tails more grip. I do wide tails because the lift they provide. I love thin rails for the hold they give me, the fuller rails tend to get more incontrollable when it is choppy. The lack of volume in superturtle, is compensated by the nose shape that keeps the nose above the water under almost any circumstances, so there is no need to paddle, just push the nose down and drop it. The short rails and rocker help it make almost any bottomturn, the nose providing the lift. Volume is weight, a wide board is providing a lot of bottomsurface, so it starts planing easily, to me more important then float. The bad thing about a lot of bottom surface is sensitivity to chop, but a well placed V helps control that. I hope in a week some new pictures will be online to illustrate this. (6’4"(190cm) 90kg)

Soul

25

silly what about something like this one

26

soulnpower , its all good. your boards look practical and fun. just not my personal style. but im sure i could get into your designs in good waves

beer fan its probably because the the nugget has more tail rocker, and the loaded dome. tail rocker width, and curve are the deciding factors. you need release in the tail ( or gentle flip) . im not talking nuggets because i dont understand the design of the loaded dome , but for standard shortboard tail, i think that anything over 15 1/4 wide starts to get wierd in the lip. squash tails also release better (which is why pros ride them)

frankfurter

the board you posted is the right idea. i would work from that point and play with the wide point and try and pull the tail

the more you pull the tail on a wide short board the stranger things start looking wrt to TRADITION.so as you pull the tail, moving the widepoint more forward(we are talking subtle here) helps with the ASTHETIC. as far as asthetic goes i believe if it looks good, it will go good. but everyone has different taste. some people like there boards to look like something out of a 70s japanese manga,like a cross between the batmobile and 70s rockets with sharp bits sticking out everywhere LOL

i perfer soft lines and curves and subtle artwork

is the 40 liters compulsory?

heres a 6 3 with 34 liters its for me . im 6 3 and about 190 pounds i think . its a performance board for 4 foot point breaks

it has a deep single concave to flat in the tail and rear fin is set back to 3 inches (for 6 foot board and moves slightly forward as you increase the boards length)

a little under volume for your friend perhaps so i modded it and moved the wide point forward on the second file

this one has a whopping 37 liters on a 6 1 shortboad

the tail is rounded into a squash and id most likely lower the nose entry when shaping it by hand

i would get this board out of perhaps a 6 '7 bennet and utilise the nose rocker on the blank and ( cut an inch or two off the nose) with most of the waste off the tail then shape in my desired tail rocker. usually about 2 inches to 2 1/4  . you may have to use a fish blank to get the width( which requires some skills to shape the rocker)

also it gets tricky to shape a nice wide outline and still maintain a relatively functional tail width for vert surfing. so im guessing that why berts boards have gone the direction they did with his signature S tail. You really notice the wide, low rocker tails when you try and hook one round under the lip. they just dont release unless you throw your whole body into it (im thinking maybe some slight V in the last 6 inches might help). anyway IMO about 15 inches or less is good,

btw these are my personal designs , developed and tested by me and some very talented surfers.of which i make a meager income, so if you use them please consider some acknoledgement of the author, and perhaps use them as a reference rather then copy them directly. also one other point. the rail shape, rockers and foil will vary from these cad files as i shape by EYE and FEEL. and mainly use these files for templates and a basic guide.

ps. please ignore the shapers comments in the pdf. these boards are different to the one in the comments. they have thinner tails with less tuck and harder edges. more tail rocker and a deep single concave

 

btw for some reason the attachments are round the wrong way. the 6 1 was the second file

27

the feet spread, center of gravity to rocker relationship is the single most relevant aspect of hotdog surfing IMO. add in a nice outline,3 fins and some volume to suit your weight and mostly everything else is bullshit.( or not)

28

thank fo da help

29

Comment on the topic straight from Rusty from Surfline

THE SECRET BEHIND DISPLACEMENT AND BIG-GUY SHORTBOARDS

Rusty offers advice to the larger set on how to order a high-performance board

 

 

"I've been surfing for over 30 years and have gone from shortboards to longboards and back to shorterboards. I'm 6', 200lbs. I'd love to get a big thruster that would work in quality surf and would probably work in average surf, too. Can you help me?"

--Hayes Domler

 

Rusty, being a big guy himself, tackles the question head on: 

 

What's considered big for the non-surfing man? Let's say 200 pounds and up. So what's average for a surfer? Well, for argument's sake, let's say 150 to 170 pounds. But 180 is starting to tip the scale. Any pro surfer 190lbs is considered big -- Jordy Smith, Jay Davies, Pancho Sullivan, Sunny Garcia, Luke Egan -- while 200lbs is considered really big. Simon Anderson, a.k.a. The Gentle Giant, surfed in competitions at 6'3" and 210 pounds. There are a lot of very fit surfers who are, simply put, bigger than average.

 

 

Thruster-inventor and former World #3 Simon Anderson was a big dude -- which never slowed him down, especially at Sunset. Photo: Dan Merkel/A-Frame 

 

 

At 200 pounds, a young, fit guy surfing in good waves can probably make 6'2"x18.5"x2.3" work for him. Yet, 6'3"x18.75"x2.4" is probably a little more practical.

 

Here are some other examples. A retired pro surfer in his mid 30s, standing at 6'3" and 230 pounds would probably ride a 6'5"x19.5"x 2.5". But when he was in competitive form, he probably would've weighed 200 pounds and rode a 6'3"x18.65"x 2.3".

 

Or take a 6'5", 230-pound, professional athlete in his early 20s who is an experienced surfer. His board would be 6'6" 19.75 by 2.6. Meanwhile, a 6'7" 230-pound retired NBA player in his early 40s would need a 6'10" 21 by 2.8-inch board as an experienced surfer.

 

Then factor in age, fitness level and venue, and the numbers change. 

 

A lot of guys fall into the vanity versus reality funk -- if you're working too hard and not enjoying yourself on the same board or dimensions that served you well a few years ago, go a little bigger. If fun becomes work, you're only hindering yourself. Go a little longer, wider, thicker and you will increase your wave count and stoke. You'll probably surf more often and the fun and fitness will be restored.

 

People often ask whether there's a formula for volume. Here's an astute observation from one of the readers of our previous blog:

 

Tom G. 05/19/2009 04:25 PM

"Could you help bring back the volume measurements of surfboards? Maybe even weigh the boards too...(~5-10% difference). It could improve consumer confidence (for the average guy) in avoiding the worst purchase for most surfers -- a sinker that floats you at your neck! For example, some people think you should surf something no less than 35% of your volume. So if I weigh 77 kilos (170 lbs) I should surf a board that displaces 27 kilos of water (27 liters). Would this help the movement?"

 

Jamie O'Brien weighs in at about 180 pounds and typically his go-to board is 6'2"x18.5"x2.27" inches and displaces a volume of approximately 27.5 liters (or about 77 beers, as one CAD program conveniently calculates.) I've made him shorter, wider boards and I do use the volume tool on the software as a cross check. 

 

 

Ability level and venue also must be taken into consideration, and in no way is it meant to be disrespectful, but these are realistic factors when finding the right board for you. 

 

Alex from Sweden 

"I'm 6'3" and about 220 pounds with wintersuit and all. Even worse is that I surf mostly in the Baltic Sea that is cold and has much less salt, meaning less buoyancy. I don't fancy longboards or funshapes because I want a stable board that can carve and snap but still handle less buoyant water. My question -- what kind of board, and especially size, do you think would suit me?"

 

Venue is always a factor. Again, another spot-on comment, this one about salinity and buoyancy. The best way to add volume is to add width. This will increase stability but the trade-off is a reduction in reaction time. Wide boards aren't necessarily any slower than narrower boards in terms of how fast they are capable of traveling down the line but width directly affects the quickness of a board with regards to rail-to-rail transition. 

 

Simply put, for bigger surfers: width is your friend. You don't have the same quick twitch muscle speed as your smaller brethren. You have more power. Design you board accordingly. Head high is all relative. Adding thickness will add buoyancy -- the trade off is a decrease in flex and sensitivity. And while adding length may allow you to catch the wave a little earlier, the trade off is possibly compromising how the board fits in the curve of the wave and increased arc length on turns.

 

A big part of a shaper's job is finding a good balance between all these variables.

 

Your board should somewhat reflect your build. Shorter, stockier surfers should probably consider adding the extra volume they need with a little extra thickness. Taller, leaner surfers may be better served by going a little longer, and wider. The extra width is important to maintain outline curve. For every two inches of change in length (+/-) approximately an eighth of an inch (+/-) will keep the curve somewhat similar. 

 

Foot size also comes into play. Sasquatch doesn't want his toes hanging over the rails and he can probably handle more width because of the leverage he can deliver with his big feet.

 

 

It's difficult to generalize and that's why I think it's so important for anyone who wants to maximize his or her surfing to work with an experienced shaper on customized equipment. Once again, this isn't so much about old-guy or fat-guy boards, but really trying to throw out some practical solutions for the surfer who's bigger than average and frustrated with trying to find a happy middle ground between challenge and reward.

 

Average sized surfers are generally happy with fins that have a base and height of around 4.5 inches and a flex pattern that incorporates a somewhat softer tip. Bigger surfers should be looking at fins in the 4.65 to 4.75 range, base and height. Also, avoid softer fins. Plastics are a no-no. Some RTM fins are good. Carbon tends to be too rigid. Nothing beats a well-foiled, all-fiberglass fin. In smaller surf you can sub in a set of five-inch (give or take 1/8") front fins for more lift and drive and drop in a smaller rear fin to free up your tail.

 

Quads? I'm a big advocate, especially for larger surfers in everyday conditions.

 

As far as materials and construction go, bigger guys have more to gain from EPS/Epoxy. With lighter, quicker surfers, I usually adjust the volume down to compensate for the increased buoyancy. While bigger or more "experienced" (a.k.a. older) surfers usually choose to enjoy the additional paddle power.

 

There are so many variables to factor in, but here's a stab at a super basic spreadsheet:

 

#1: A board with typical shortboard proportions. (From a distance, under a bigger surfer's arm or on a wave, it would be difficult to tell how long the board really is.)

 

A 3-inch difference between nose and tail

Nose 11 to 12 inches 

Tail 14 to 15 inches

Wide-point an inch or two back

More of a "back foot" design

 

Assuming average ability, average surf condition and that the surfer is reasonably fit, surfing three-plus times a week.

 

20 to 30 years old:

200lbs 6'6" 19.5 by 2.5

225lbs 6'9" 20.0 by 2.65

250lbs 7'0" 20.5 by 2.85

 

30 to 40:

200lbs 6'9" 20.25 by 2.7

225lbs 7'0" 20.75 by 2.85

250lbs 7'3" 21.25 by 3.0

 

40 to 50:

200lbs 7'0" 20.5 by 2.75

225lbs 7'3" 21.0 by 2.9

250lbs 7'6" 21.5 by 3.0+

 

50 to 60:

200lbs 7'3" 21.25 by 2.9

225lbs 7'6" 21.75 by 3.0

250lbs 7'9" 22.0 by 3.15+ 

 

#2: A little more balanced, user-friendly shape

 

A 1.5-inch difference between nose and tail

Nose 13 to 14 inches

Tail 14.5 to 15.5 inches

Wide point moves closer to center

 

Assuming average ability, average surf and a reasonably fit guy, surfing one to two times a week.

 

20 to 30 years old:

200lbs 6'6" 20.5 by 2.65

225lbs 6'9" 21.0 by 2.8

250lbs 7'0" 21.5 by 3.0

 

30 to 40:

200lbs 6'9" 21.25 by 2.75

225lbs 7'0" 21.75 by 3.0

250lbs 7'3" 22.25 by 3.1

 

40 to 50:

200lbs 7'0" 21.5 by 2.85

225lbs 7'3" 22.0 by 3.0

250lbs 7'6" 22.5 by 3.15+

 

50 to 60:

200lbs 7'3" 22.25 by 3.0

225lbs 7'6" 22.75 by 3.125

250lbs 7'9" 23.0 by 3.25+

There are many other options in design that will allow you to go shorter if you choose. Boards that are wider in the nose and tail with more relaxed rockers work for certain types of waves. Or go longer for that matter. It's all about the waves you surf and the lines you want to draw. 

Form follows fun.

 

30

check this out.


31

hi bernie

nothing against rusty or the the rest of them, but i read that thing from rusty. that would put me on a 6 9 by 20 for waist high waves which is a fuckn joke and im just and average ability surfer. i certainly dont how he got as far as he did as a shaper. i only been going for 4 years and i already know what he wrote in that article is dated and inacurate information. and i guess thats why you cant get a 20 by 511 off the shelf. because industry driven shapers have no imagination and just do what everyone else does. so all the old guys are still riding 6 10 and 7 0s in kneehigh surf .

and whats the name shapers answer for wide short boards?

a retro bloody fish!

merriks biscuit is pretty cool tho

32

Hi Silly,

 

I think you missed the last part:

"There are many other options in design that will allow you to go
shorter if you choose. Boards that are wider in the nose and tail with
more relaxed rockers work for certain types of waves. Or go longer for
that matter. It’s all about the waves you surf and the lines you want
to draw. "

 

regards,

 

Håvard

33

Yea… his guide would put me on like a 6’9 x 19.5 in average surf. I’m 45 years old, 6’1 and 190lbs, and I guess average in fitness and ability, so I guess I would qualify as both bigger and older than average. And his guide suggests a board that’s too long for me, and not wide enough for average surf. So I get what you’re saying. But in terms of volume, and I think that’s the key to getting a board that floats you right, he might be close to the target. I find I’m good with a 6’4 x 21 for average surf. Average surf around here is waist to chest beachbreak.

And I have to say that I agree with him on just about everything he said about fins. Plastic fins never, ever worked for me. And those “fiberglass flex” fins don’t work for me, either. Solid fiberglass was better. Wood fins were better, too, if they were made from the right core material. Foam core epoxy fins are best for me, and carbon is too stiff. Quads work better for me than thrusters - another suggestion he made that’s relevant for bigger guys, IMHO.

I think the tip about adding 1/8 inch of width for ever two inches of length is right on, too, for keeping the curve the same.

34

One thing I don’t get, why does a few inches difference in length make or break a board? If you take your average shortboard, there is so little thickness and width in the nose area you might as well tape a pencil to the nose and call it four inches longer. How does that change the riding characteristics of a board?

 

So what is it that make a slightly longer board so different?

 

regards,

 

Håvard

35

Nice discussion, finally getting somewhere!

I agree with Silly, but I still go for the longboard without the long middle part, superturtle,5’11"x22.5".

Tested it in DOH, works, but feels very short. Then I like my 6’1" with the longer rail for drive and stability in bottomturns.

A board is not only the sizes of the outline and rocker, but how they work together to provide the overall performance.

It is possible to get any shape to work in some given circumstances, but it is always a compromise, with a dark side too.

Many things depend on the price you want to pay for your favorite properties. You have good and bad compromises, also depending on the surfers abilities and local conditions.

I’m the Neanderthal (caveman they called me), I love width with my huge feet.

It is great to hear about the many views on this difficult subject. Gets me thinking again, braingymnastics!

Lets see what comes out! Join in give us your view!

36

If you’re just stretching out the nose, I guess it doesn’t really matter, except your rocker numbers will be off and your widepoint would move back and your nose width would be changed. But if you follow his recommendation, and go 1/8 wider for every 2 inches longer, instead of a 6’4 x 21 you end up with 6’9 x 21 1/4+. Seems like that would ride a lot differently.

I’ll agree that an inch or so will not matter much. That’s why a lot of boards really aren’t what they say they are if you put a tape on them and measure.

37

[quote="$1"]

One thing I don't get, why does a few inches difference in length make or break a board? If you take your average shortboard, there is so little thickness and width in the nose area you might as well tape a pencil to the nose and call it four inches longer. How does that change the riding characteristics of a board?

 So what is it that make a slightly longer board so different?

 

If you keep the nose and tail curve the same, then the extra length can be added in the centre - with a slightly straighter outline curve through the centre. That can be an extra 2 inches of foam that is 20 wide and 2 5/8 thick. Just depends how you add the length. 

 

38

Do I miss something, or is it wise to scale everything. So scale the length scale the outline curve and the rocker curve, adding a bit somewhere will give a flat spot.

Talking about volume is in 3 dimensions.

Lenght, width and thickness.

I like the long, strong and fat comparisson, so just a bigger guy willl mean bigger in 3 dimensions, few inches length, abit of an inch in width and a bit in thickness. The one won’t come without the other, only changes in a surfers bodyshape can do that.

But there are also many design properties that can change a board without changing it’s dimensions. With this I want to say that there are more ways to make a board work! It is a lot of fun to play with curves, that way it is possible to change a board completely.

That is what I am after!

39

That’s just it, it depends.

If you just scale up a standard shortboard in length uniformly, say a foot in length, how much forward does the sweet spot move? The center of the mass most likely moved half the increase in length forward. That’s the balance point of the floatation so most likely you will move that much forward when you paddle (unless the shaper add extra foam under the chest typical of big guy boards which will move the balance point even further forward). Unless you change your popup, your stance will be that much further forward when you get to your feet. And most likely the fins did not move those six inches forward. So what to do, a five inch wider stance or move you stance five inches back to get your back foot over the fins?

That said I like longer boards as they paddle a little better, I like long drawn out turns using th rail anyway and I feel it helps with my less than stellar popup especially in weak waves.

40

So what do you guys think of a mini simmons style board for him? would those work for a surfer his size, and what is the size of the mini simmons that would work? thanks