There is a difference in a board’s speed based on just trimming across the wave or pumping (pushing down and releasing it back up while using your body to project forward) and keeping it on the rail in the sweet spot of the wave.
I also think that the wave plays a big role in how fast you’ll be able to go. Ride a big north swell in Hawaii and you’ll see just how fast you can go. Watch the tow in guys and you’ll see how fast you need to go just to catch and ride those giant waves.
In normal sized waves, I’ve found that pumping generates more speed than just trimming across the wave. I’ve also noticed that short flatter boards ridden this way are faster than other boards, but ridden in a simple trim style aren’t. The boards also need to have the right type of rail. A rounder rail will not be as fast as a rail with a nice hard edge. I love those tucked under edges.
I’ve never seen long boards generate the bursts of speed that shorter flatter boards get from pumping the board to keep it on the rail.
Unlike yourself, we have done careful calculations prior to posting
Unlike you Roy… I know how to surf. hahaha
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The maximum energy output of an adult male under ideal conditions (continuous deep squats) is around half a horsepower. Calculations of the power obtained (in horsepower) via gravitational potential on a head high wave for a board and rider of 100kg is around 5 horsepower.
I don’t disagree with that.
The day at SanO wasn’t head high. It was kneehigh mush.
Let’s go back to the skateboard demo… how do you explain that with no gravity, you can still make the board move forward? Some guys can’t do it. Some can. Same board, same surface.
Let’s go back to the skateboard demo… how do you explain that with no gravity, you can still make the board move forward? Some guys can’t do it. Some can. Same board, same surface.
Firstly, you wouldn’t be able to pump the skateboard if there was no gravity because you would fly off into space ( reminds me of 70’s Golden Breed posters ), but I agree that on flat ground one can pump a skateboard for speed without gaining net energy from gravity 9 in other words it’s all coming from the rider.
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I am the fastest flatland skateboarder on earth…
That’s really good because we can then run a test to see how much horsepower you can produce via pumping action.
If you can get a nice flat surface and then pump away on your skateboard while carrying a gps unit then we can get a top speed for your pumping activities, this could be used to work out how much horsepower is produced.
Because surfboards aresubject to much higher drag than skateboards it would be a mistake to assume that the speed gained on a skateboard via pumping would be equivalent to the speed able to be gained on a surfboard via pumping. . . . (the surfboard will gain much less)
Can you do it for us please? (no pushing off the ground allowed) if you don’t have a gps then a time trial over a measured distance should be easy to arrange.
I’ve done a lot of skate boarding in my life and I’ve found that combining the effect of pumping with lifting of the front wheels will get the board to move better from a standing start than just trying to pump it with all the wheels on the ground. Once you get moving, you can keep the front wheels down.
That’s similar to how we pump surfboards. We’re combining pushing and lifting and projecting our bodies in a forward direction. It’s just as important to release all your weight and project forward as it is to push down. The process of forcing the board down on the rail gets it to be pushed back up by the bouyancy of the board. That allows the board to elevate above the water ever so slightly to reduce drag. Watch the kids hopping on their boards trying to make it across flat spots that they’d never get through just standing on the board.
The trick is to know when to push and when to release. Do it on the wrong part of the wave and it doesn’t work the same. With a skateboard, push too hard at the wrong time and it goes out from under you and you stay going hemo skin.
Even in a full trim flying along a fast moving wall, I’ll pump my board a little (make slight turns to keep the board up on the rail higher on the wave) for more speed. I love to go fast. Think of Laniakea when it breaks from way outside the houses and goes all the way down to the other side in a fast peeling clean wall.
To me speed on a surfboard is a multi faceted concept, speed through turns, speed off the top, floater speed, acceleration on take off and out of turns and of course down the line speed. Long boards might be great for trim speed but by design they are limited by the type of wave, they go as fast as the wave permits and there’s not much the rider can do to convince it to do otherwise.
I will say the fastest down the line surfer I’ve ever seen was a guy on a flat 8’-0" tri fin at Pavones in Costa Rica, the waves were a few feet overhead and the swell was coming from a low angle making the sections almost impossible to keep up with. This guy would take off on the outside and with a combination of pumping and trim could burn down the line like a run away train, it’s rare for me to sit on the beach to watch other surfers and even more so when it’s 4 to 6 and glassy, but this performance was fascinating.
Longer boards are just as capable of acceleration due to rider input if they are designed to allow it.
What you seem to be doing is tarring all longboards with the same brush so to speak, but there’s nothing about length per se which prevents speed through pumping action. . . . in fact I design my boards to respond to pumping action via flexiblity and horizontal foils (for example)
True, I did have a close minded answer, I’m friends with several professional long boarders and the current fashion is to ride tankers, so their image stuck in my mind when I replied.
A trimmed out twin tip with the right flex and rail design could be a real rocket.
Relativity=shortboard to longboard, and down the line.
I believe that pumping any board increases speed/velocity.
Shorter boards, singlefins or esp. tris are typically quicker (speedier) in directional change than longer board tris and esp. singlefins.
Shorter boards can more efficiently harness gravity by rising/turning quicker to gain and regain speed enhancing drops and do not bleed much speed in doing so due to both quick response and the sculling effects of the tris.
The result is faster down the line speed of a competently ridden shorter tri despite the straighter (but not straight) line drawn by a comptently pumped longer.
Seems easy enough to observe in any mixed board lineup.
Laconic I don’t think that the speed differences which you have observed are due to length differences, IMO it has more to do with the poor state of longboard design. We find that regular longboards are slower than shortboards, and that our longboards are faster than or equal to shortboards, depending on the waves.
why don’t you show roy your video of testing that tiny hydroepic 6’2" riding a wake behind that speedboat.
I always liked that one, much better that the girls riding the longboards in the main site.
Although you can see the trim speed impact they get just slight pumping their hydoepics a tad…
Roy gets a similar effect gently undulating his flexy spear using his subtle footwork changes and dropping of his weight into crouches breaking the water tension along the boards bottom thus decreasing board/water surface tension and increasing release and forward gravitational movement. Spear design helps too.
Using the old logs, olo’, whatevas the oldtimers did the same with a hula glide move which involved the undulating of their hips side to side with feet riding parallel tot he rails to break the water tension along the flat bottom and allowing the weight and shape of the board to carry forward. Especially the old heavy wood ones with little rocker and no fin. Classic old timer trim acceleration move across the face. Just go watch the old films from the 20’s and 30’s …
but that speed boat wake video is all about pumping a shortie
My take on speed is that absolute speed has no merit without reference, case in point Laird’s infamous wave at chopes. Where he must have been going like mach 10 as you can tell by his struggle to maintain balance but since the face was moving just as fast if not faster, it appears as if he’s stationary like on a flow rider.
Makes me wonder if there’s an absolute max to which you can travel conventionally (no foil) and still be in control along a variable surface like a wave without taking air to smooth out the ride. There must be a calc for that involving mass, distance of the mass centerpoint from surface contact, acceleration and the effect of a bumpy or ripply surface like a wave…
i,e, you can only go so fast before all hell break loose due to vibration and bumps.
But it just some ideas floating around and no truth being spoken by me…
If you want to go fast on a wave you need to ride a Stingray Speed Egg. We include the word Speed in the name so you don’t forget why you are riding our boards. Our team riders often refer to this board as the Ray Gun. All Ray Gun boards are glassed using the latest X-Raytech and we get all our blanks from Ray Foam. Forget about Lazors. Once you get Zapped by a Ray you will never surf anything else. Test riders tell us that Ray Gun surfboards also can see through clothing using the reflective properties of beach sand. Our lab crew is currently working on scientific proof of for all Stingray Speed Products !
The amount of energy available from pumping is less than 10% of the total energy available to drive board and rider.
How are you quantifying this?
Quite frankly I don’t get the whole speed thing. If speed is what you want, put a sail on it, howz 40 knots sound?
The whole idea, as far as I know, with (longboard)surfing is aimed at staying in the most dynamic part of the wave, the pocket… trimming, running the nose, cutting back, bottom turns, stalling all aimed at keeping us in the pocket…
A long waterline is fast, check any yachtbuilder. But a yacht doesn’t turn on a dime or flip fins-free airs…
I’ve been trying to load the wakesurfing video to youtube, but I’m having a problem with it. I’ll keep trying.
Without the pumping action, there’s no way I could keep up with the boat. Same thing at small mushy SanO last week. The trick is to find the small power band in the wave and work it. Boatsurfing is one of the best training tools I’ve found for surfing small waves - or any waves for that matter. It’s really clear where the power is on that tiny wave, and you have to pay close attention to it to stay attached. I think of it like playing “crack the whip” as a kid - where you get a bunch of kids whipping the end kid into mach speed.
I’m the end kid on my surfboard. I whip the board into a turn. At max velocity, I turn to tap the wave energy again and whip the other way. Pumping is just linking these whips together to fully exploit the wave’s available energy. Little waves = tight little whips. Big waves = big loose whips.
Longer boards are just as capable of acceleration due to rider input if they are designed to allow it.
What you seem to be doing is tarring all longboards with the same brush so to speak, but there’s nothing about length per se which prevents speed through pumping action. . . . in fact I design my boards to respond to pumping action via flexiblity and horizontal foils (for example)
Comon Roy… you think it’s as easy to pump an eighteen foot Roystick as it is to pump a 4lb six foot fish? I don’t think so. You need about a mile just to turn one of your boards. hahaha
I’m talking about TIGHT little turns that are centered around the narrow power band on the wave. If you’ve felt it, you know what I’m talking about. If you haven’t… it’s like telling a blind man what blue is.
You can pump bigger boards, but the reaction time is much slower and the feel is not as sensitive. Consequently, it’s much easier to accelerate through pumping on a smaller, more nimble board. Also, you’re creating forward momentum by pulling the board through turns with your hips and legs. The bigger and heavier the board is the harder that is to do. It’s not just about flexing and unflexing on your rail… you have to pull the board behind you.
That’s really good because we can then run a test to see how much horsepower you can produce via pumping action.
If you can get a nice flat surface and then pump away on your skateboard while carrying a gps unit then we can get a top speed for your pumping activities, this could be used to work out how much horsepower is produced.
It’s not so much about power… it’s about timing. Sure it takes more energy to get started, but then it’s about finding a groove and timing your turns. With flexible skateboards (or surfboards), you also have the spring effect to tap into.
On a wave, there is an area where the most energy can be found. On flatland on a skateboard, this energy zone doesn’t exist - it comes from you. Instead you have to focus on the central part of you turns. I pull the board into turns by leading with my hips and pulling the board with my feet. I then time my direction change to take place when the board has accelerated to the fastest point that I can achieve with my limited horsepower (good thing horses don’t skate or surf). By linking turns and getting the timing right, I can find a groove and propel myself forward with little effort. As my momentum increases, my turns can get progressively tighter, and my speed increases. I’ve been able to get a skateboard up to about twenty-five miles an hour on a completely level surface without touching my feet to the ground - varified by friends driving alongside in a car. Granted this was when I had youth on my side. I bet I can still hit twenty.
Surfboards may have more drag, but the principle is the same. Pumping a surfboard in this way will produce forward momentum. While I can’t get a board to move forward on flat water, I can get one to go faster on a wave through pumping it correctly.
I’d love to post a video, but I currently don’t have a camera. If any SF swaylockers want to shoot it, I can post something.
Sheesh, can’t believe I’m biting on this troll post…
Phil Edwards (famous surf guy) once addressed the shortboard/longboard speed issue. I think he wrapped it up by agreeing that in short bursts, a small board was capable of greater speed but his big board simply ended up farther down the beach.
I have some old film footage of guys in Waikiki on solid wooden longboards and it looks like they’re hauling ass on slopey waves a shortboard couldn’t even catch.
In the context of your “standing wave” it would seem that if you could keep both boards in the wave, the water flow rate against the bottom of the board would be the same regardless of board size.
