solosurfer. i had no political vestment in my line that follows all my posts… my brand is DIVERSE and i have many a catchcry using the words associated with it. please post your user information so we can know more of your background and who/what you represent. please take no malice i like to know who im bantering with!
Feral,
No malice intended on my part either and I have no problem with diversity of design. I do have problems with surftech and selling out of American jobs overseas. I have been around the surf industry since my early 20s. If you want to know more. IM me. I am well aquainted with the surf industry and business in general.
I enjoy debating certain subjects, so don’t take offense.
Ah hell here I go.
There are other countries in the world the US can not hang onto everything you are lucky in that yur economy is self supportive. You cannot be for the Capatilism and then winge when it turns and bites you in the butt. Depending on where you buy a map in the world that continent will be in the centre not the US. All countries with strong economies are suffering the onslaught of pop outs but it seems the US winges the most.
These places are not sweatshops their employees get market rates relative to there local economy and some of them do a damm fine job.
Please excuse the rest of the word for trying to make a living.
South African Expat living in the UK
Swifty,
I don’t really disagree with most of your post. Part of my problem with America’s form of capitalism is on one hand our government makes claims to care about people of other countries health and well being to the point of even invading someone to fix their so called human rights problems. Then on the other hand we deal with a country (china etc) who is one of the most notorious for killing it’s own people and withholding basic human freedoms etc. I don’t like the two faced side of the thing. Look at your own country of South Africa. WE instituted economic sanctions against your country to look good to certain groups here in America; not to help the South African people who have been our allies in every major war. You have surfers claiming to be for human rights and all other sorts of liberal agenda things, yet that same surfer will go out and buy a board made in china which is supporting communism.
As for Capitalism: I am not for unchecked capitalism. We have seen what that can do from our early 1800 and 1900s. Child labor, indentured servitude, abject slavery.
I believe in very little govt. intervention, but there must be some checks or capitalism turns into elitism quickly. The big guys get all the pie and keep polititians in their back pocket to keep the smaller guy from getting to where they are. Then only a few have most of the money. There is nothing wrong with free trade, but there is something wrong with us allowing countries the ability to trade in America free from tariffs and yet they put big tariffs on our products. I don’t think we should trade with countries like china at all until they change the way they treat their people.
I realize there are those from other countries here. I only say America because I am seeing first hand what is happening here. I don’t think the world should revolve around what America does, but since I live here that must be my main concern.
I have never said anything negative about the quality of Surftech or any of the Chinese boards etc. The quality I have seen is as good as any, but It has nothing to do with the point I am making.
Quote:
matt vecere from surfnews here again, i’ve been doing research in to the sweatshop issue. it’s a common accusation of boards being made overseas, particularly china and thailand. i haven’t been able to find any factual basis for either side of the argument. can anyone help?
If you have been doing any research, I’ve yet to hear one peep from you on this subject. You should not have to bait us w/ your BS question and not offer anything worth while yourself. Why don’t you read some of the published information in the archives first?
Some of the characters working here in America are pretty close to unhealthy conditions w/ no health insurance, low pay, living in cars, so they can grind there teeth to sand out your board. I still don’t think the factory in Thailand is a sweat shop, and if you did your homework you would know too. Your loaded question is just for fodder.
epac,
since you’ve attacked my integrity, here goes: i’ve read all the archives. there are many references made to surfboards and sweatshops, but with no facts ever referenced. i did do my research. i’ve worked extensively over the past decade with various fair labor, human rights, and env’t organizations on the issue of free trade vs fair trade, living wages, and undemocratic trade deals between countries such as nafta and the wto, as well as the proposed cafta and ftaa agreements. i’ve spoken with global exchange, sweatshop watch and united students against sweatshops, and no one had any info about surfboards and unfair labor practices. i am quite familiar with the issues surrounding free trade and its effects on living standards in all nations, and the environments of said nations–which is in itself a human rights issue. the question is not a loaded question. and if you do think it is loaded, which direction is it loaded towards? do you think i’m on the pro- or anti- import side? the question is intended to find if anyone has access to any factual information that i have not come across. and, epac, you are the one who took the time to post–if you don’t like my “loaded” question, simply move on. thanks everyone for your time and help with what i consider a worthwhile and important issue to be covered editorally. --matt vecere
Re: protective tariffs…
Does anybody think that Harley Davidson would still be around if it were not for protective tariffs implemented? Here is an excerpt from an article about Reagan…
My father was a police officer for the township where the Harley Davidson plant was located. He and many officers were assisting the security of the U.S. president for the Secret Service. My mom taped Reagan’s visit to Harley Davidson on one of our first several new tapes on our first and NEW VCR in 1987. I remembered when Reagan flew on Marine One from White House to York, PA and landed on the ground of the Harley Davidson plant.
President Reagan was given a factory tour of Harley Davidson and gave a speech of how proud he was to the factory workers for their survival from a huge plunge due to foreign competition of motorcyles’ sales.
"His one visit to York County perfectly illustrates that characterization: In 1987, he visited the Harley-Davidson motorcycle plant to praise workers for their efficiency and productivity in bouncing back from the brink of demise.
But that longtime prophet of free markets also praised Harley for its effective use of protective tariffs to survive foreign competition."
Would the US auto industry have survived the onslought of Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Mazda were it not for protectionist US policies against the imports? Ironically, even with the artificially induced higher prices brought on by tariffs, not to mention our currency exchange rate with Japan, imports have done quite well against US brands.
Does anyone think the surfboard industry amounts to much more than peanuts in relation to the US economy as a whole?
Does anyone think the surfboard industry has the political clout to effectively lobby for protection against the imports?
I spoke with an old high school buddy (who doesn’t surf) recently. When we somehow got on the subject of surfing, he actually seemed quite excited that Costco was now carrying surfboards! “And they’re really cheap!” he said. I mumbled something about that being the problem but I really don’t think he understood…
The fact is that people who decide to shape or sand for low wages in the us do it becouse they choose to! If they dont like it then find another job. I have been shaping and sanding for a long time and the conditions in most stateside factories are not good. I understand about the low margins and such, but if you are worried about overseas boards or concerned with poor loabor practices than we should look in the mirror and make our product and labor conditions better first before we concern ourselves with thailand!
Overseas boards are not going anywhere, We dont have enough clout in Washington to do anything, The Backyard shapers such as myself will survive, becouse people will always like the relationship they have with them.
I to wish that overseas boards never came into the picture, but they have so lets deal with it and work on shaping a better board!
P.s
Just becouse we live by a certain standard doesn’t mean the rest of the world has to live by the same, They have been doing ok for thousands of years without us getting involved!
I think the question(s) are loaded when you ask, and have asked before in other posts, and never have an opinion to share. They get reconstituted over and over into the usual bantering of a couple of die hards.
I don’t think you have shown where you have integrity or not, one way or the other. So what’s your take on these issues?
So what do you think of the Surftech imports? The Cobra Factory? The higher wage of its workers? The health care?
The shared profit with the retailer? The retailer actually makes money off Surftech.
Are Americans willing to work?
Go out in the farm fields and see if there are any Gringos. Who’s cooking in your favorite restaurant?
To thinks surfboards have never been thought of as a commodity is ridiculous. Since the 60’s they were sold as units. Look on e-bay at all of the borderline boards that people think are great. They were pushed on the east coasters in droves.
Epac,
I was wondering where the board shorts or wetsuit you had on during your last surf session came from?
I am not a big fan of imports, but lets not be hypocrits
well, i think the question here is: who’s suffering from the onslaught of popouts?
is it the workers in the cobra factory? the pics i’ve seen of it show a light, modern, airy workplace. maybe the pics are wrong. i understand they earn 2-3 times the average daily wage of similar workers in their country. maybe my information regarding that is wrong. the craftsmen of thailand have a long history of ability in boatbuilding craft arts and many other craft trades, so i would believe that they could, with adequate training, not only build high quality boards in the surftech genre, but also could…to a point…handcraft poly or epoxy boards that from a quality standpoint would equal those made here.
now. design is an altogether different subject. there is no substitute for a handcrafted surfboard designed and shaped by a master shaper and glassed and finished by professionals.
I haven’t heard that around here, the local craftsmen are standing around with their hands in their pockets, waiting for the food stamp line to open up.
my understanding is that it is still taking about 4 - 6 weeks for a custom order to show up at your door.
if i’m wrong, please correct me, i won’t take offense.
so if the pop-outs are selling well, and the handcrafted surfboard market is thriving, well, what’s the problem?
no one here was making popouts before cobra opened up and started selling. and i haven’t heard that anyone’s market share has fallen off. so, what’s the problem.
?
again. if’ i’m wrong and all over the west and east costs of the usa and hawaii, sales are falling off and shops are closing and glassers can’t find work…then, as bogart said…" i was misinformed".
now. the stock in some of the shops have changed. ronjon only has a few real surfboards in stock. tons of RONJON boards, and yes, the differences are obvious, at least to me. but probably not to the first time buyer.
yet, quiet flight continues to market their own boards and expand operations, and, seem to be doing quite nicely, thank you. so maybe there is a lesson in marketing and manufacture to be learned from the leisure brothers here, eh?
i don’t have insider information, so i don’t really know. again, if i am wrong correct me, i won’t get upset. i am interested in informtion gathering rather than standing ground and fighting for my opinion…which is only an opinion and which may change as facts are presented.
so it seems that no one is being injured, and that most everyone is adapting to change and we are evolving as a sub species, the semi marine hominid.
however the subject of globalization generally is a pain in the ass. beginning with the auto industry, our unions have failed to protect the most basic rights of their workers…the rights to their jobs. multinational corporation…for instance chrysler, which was bought out by daimler benz, a most recent example have no interest in preserving our quality of life.
which brings me to my pet paranoia: class warfare. or as our president puts it: my constituents, the Haves and the Have Mores.
the destruction of the american middle class is occurring. we’ve always been told: sure those jobs are going overseas, (auto assembly workers), but don’t worry, there are plenty of jobs for you in the new high tech world of today. until those jobs went to india.
and that’s what the global market is leading to: the third worldization (my new word for the day that i just made up), of modern industrial countries. when the top 5% own 95% of the wealth, we too will fight like pitbulls to get one of those jobs in the factory cobra just relocated here to take advantage of the cheap american labor.
and as my hero says: “that’s all i have to say about that”.
Peterg,
Thank you for speaking some sense ! The fact is that most shapers are getting more and more busy! Shops are expanding and RonJons never carried that many real boards anyway.
I am not quit sure why everyone is bummed, Like I said before
“Look in the mirror before pointing the finger”
Epac,
You make some very good points. I guess I am one of the diehards on this subject. This is one of my pet subjects, but there are things I have grown to love about dealing with great shapers and that seems to now becoming something of the past. When all the masters who have been at it for years are gone, I guess we will deal with sub par shapers or simply go to walmarts.
here are some facts the consumer should know about buying surfboards
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Handshaped surfboards wholesale: depending on where you live and who you buy from they will generally run between $295 and $380.00 the retailer will add between $75 and $150.00 these are shortboard prices up to about 6’4’’ Longboards generally run about $350.00 on the low side up to $750 and even $800 on the high side. If you have them shipped and packed that is extra.
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Chinese boards from Global surf Industries (Blue, SEven and many name brand boards) cost the surf shop $199.00 at the surf shops door for a sanded finish board with fins. extras generally run about $10.00 to $15.00. Longboards are $310.00 at the door up to $350.00 glossed. The glass jobs are good quality for the most part but on the lighter side.
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Surftech: Shortboards can range anywhere from $345.00 to $375.00 I don’t have my price list here but I am within $5.00 or $10.00. Longboards Run around $525.00 up to $625.00
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Boardworks: They have two programs: The shaper or shop owner can buy the mold, provide the board to be copies (many times without the shapers consent) and pay about $235.00 for shorties and about $310.00 for longboards. They then distribute the boards to other retailers themselves and go by the boardworks price list which adds another $145 to $170.00. an example of this would be some of the shop owners who do not shape but have their own models(and sign them as if they do shape). (these guys are more than doubling their money on something that cost them less than handshaped) for years these same shop owners have kept the shapers from getting higher mark ups by saying that the customer would not have it. Well the customer is having it and at their expense. Were they informed of the high markup you might see some of them begin demanding better deals or moving back to handshaped customs.
The other program from boardworks is to simply buy from one of the distributors (those shop owners who have their own models in many cases) and pay retailers markup wholesale and put them in your own shop to jump on the popout bandwagon.
- Machine shaped boards: usually shaped by a machine from the master of a shaper and then finished of in the normal manner by a ghost shaper or finisher. Many times signed as if the shaper himself shaped it.
These are some fact even though some of the prices may have gone up slightly since I have seen my last wholesale price sheet.
It’s pretty clear why retailers have jumped on the bandwagon at the expense of shapers they have beaten up over the last 35 years. Some of the fine shapers here on swaylocks can add more abou their own cost and markup.
Matt,
In your position as a ‘surfer’, I’m kind of curious as your stance in regards to the popouts verses handmade issue. And whether pro, con, or indifferent, why?
I’m also curious as to how you view the issue as a journalist once completed investigating if different.
Best,
HerbB
herb,
i’m actually still on the fence about the whole thing. both sides of the argument have very valid points. i agree that there should be some form of permanent label so that consumers know what they’re getting, and kids can make fun of their friends that are riding lame entry-level boards and will then move on to hand shaped boards by real shapers. buy anyway, i’ll share my intro to the article with you:
China boards are abortions. Well, they’re not really abortions, but the debate about “China boards” (the term which all non-hand-shaped and imported boards are usually cast under—no matter where they are actually made) reminds me of the abortion issue. The pro- and anti- factions are often a bit misguided and fundamental about their stance, as well as unable and unwilling to see the opposing point of view.
The reason I decided to write this article is that I just got sick of hearing two of the guys in our office go back and forth about it. For the sake of this article, we’ll call them Frick and Frack. Frick is anti pop-out, anti-China, anti-Taiwan, anti- just about any board that is not hand shaped from start to finish here in the good ol’ US of A. Frack is a huge supporter of China boards. So much so, one would think he had invested his life savings in to one of the so-called China board companies.
They have consistently tried to drag me in to the debate, but I have refused to take a stance because I just don’t know enough of the facts to take a stance. Recently, they were going back and forth in the office, and I was stuck in between them—literally. I had had enough.
“Would you two shut up!” I belted out in no particular direction, as it was meant for both Frick and Frack.
“I would expect you of all people, the guy who protests everything, to be against China boards,” retorted Frick.
“I really don’t know anything about the whole ‘China board’ thing. I would have to get the facts to form any kind of opinion.”
Quote:
Quote:matt vecere from surfnews here again, i’ve been doing research in to the sweatshop issue. it’s a common accusation of boards being made overseas, particularly china and thailand. i haven’t been able to find any factual basis for either side of the argument. can anyone help?
If you have been doing any research, I’ve yet to hear one peep from you on this subject. You should not have to bait us w/ your BS question and not offer anything worth while yourself. Why don’t you read some of the published information in the archives first?
Some of the characters working here in America are pretty close to unhealthy conditions w/ no health insurance, low pay, living in cars, so they can grind there teeth to sand out your board. I still don’t think the factory in Thailand is a sweat shop, and if you did your homework you would know too. Your loaded question is just for fodder.
i worked for a company who contracted to build the hobie power skiff back in the late 80’s, i was doing maint on all the factory equip. and couldn’t believe the conditions in the chop bldg. it wasn’t because the owners didn’t encourage health & safety, the employees didn’t care. although they were provided with all protective clothing,msds info, and other resources, they would shoot chop wearing only cutoffs(and a shirt if it was female). i 'd look in the door and thru the haze of hot resin you could see them with no respirators, nothing. then they would go to the acetone and wash the resin off by splashing it on their bare skin with their hands(the same acetone the rollers, etc was being rinsed off in. they didn’t care, they just want their weekly paycheck. they made their own sweatshop, their own future.
Matt,
I do agree - both sides do have very valid points depending on one’s own priorities, expectations, research, etc, etc… My first hope though is that you’re painting an extreme spectrum of views with those two guys (especially Mr. Frick). Hopefully the debate is more common in regards techniquies/materials/soul/etc and not origin of manufacturer BS - the connection of being a fellow surfers is hopefully bigger than the latter.
I see (from a web search) that you surf for Heritage. All good guys there! You will definitely have to post or link the whole article once completed.
Best,
HerbB
Also not mentioned here on the issue are the business practices of these companies. I can tell you from personal experience they are as arrogant and elitist as any of the clothing companies. They play the same “I cannot sell to the small guy to help his business because the big guy up the street will be mad and back off ordering” That BS game has always reminded me of school yard buddies jealous of each others friends. Also find out how many shapers are really happy about their royalties. Are they paid on time. Do they get good reports on sales so they know they are not being ripped off. Are they happy where their boards are being sold. What happens if one of the companies sells to Quiksilver or another clothing giant bent on controlling the surf industry. Do they still get paid. The contracts I have heard about do not cover this.