As always Brett, your threads are great catalysts for stimulating creative design/thought.
This flipper thread made me think of the old Rocket and Jet fins we used in a YMCA Scuba certification class I took with my brother when I was in my early teens.
Several potential new/non-traditional flipper designs might be possible.
Having freedom to create anything let’s my brain stroll around the possibilities of dimension, construction and materials.
The surf flipper is always going to have one purpose but what more could you get with a different design ?
whats needed ? Drive and lateral resistance in the tube sounds easy.
how about moving the blade further up the foot, So the middle of the blade length is your ankle ?
Could a flipper be a flexible glass form that wraps around your foot and ankle?
What sort of multi blade shape would work ? Would it be flexible, rigid, mechanical ? Or all three ?
The up stroke is useless for drive so what design would tap into that stroke to make it efficient ? Maybe a multi blade would work on the up and down stroke?
Maybe a tunnel blade rather than flat ?
usually I do a lot of ‘quick draws’ in my head looking for instant flaws or precedence and then start drawing shapes. I never let the materials come I to play until the end because they can be limiting when you’re really looking fo stretching concepts and shapes.
Even while writing this these words have given me some new ideas.
Hi Guys,
Just wanted to let you know that I was lurking, I’m enjoying the content,
It’s an interesting subject to me. As you may remember I spent a little time playing with foot and handfin designs.
I’ll chime in if I think of anything interesting to contribute
Hi Dave, while I’m not aiming at any type of surf activity I think that a kick-ass flipper design would predominately benefit bodysurfers because thats all we have in the surf.
However add a handplane and the benefit is more pronounced with lift and drive.
It’s still a soft idea swirling inside my head, loooking for an angle, a thread to follow…never set on any course even when it looks set.
Just wondering, why does the fin need to be on the flipper at all? Couldn’t you attach the fin to your shin? Maybe attached to a wetsuit leg or a shin guard?
MS1, a few years ago, I considered fins attached to the knee guards I wore while riding my street rigs. Haven’t abandoned the concept.
But knee fins would limit you to body surfing and prone riding of body boards.
Monkstar, The biggest problem with putting the fin on your shin or other places is keeping it from spinning around on your leg,(at least my spindly legs).
Yeah, good call. But knowing Surffoils, if he was to try it I bet he’d make an entire shin mold or some sort of vacuum bagged creation to keep it from spinning.
Thanks for the props Monkstar1, Th main problem with a shin placement is that it’s closer to the fulcrum of the hip/ knee combo. The further away from the fulcrum the deeper the arc / sweep / drive of the flipper.
There’s a tradeoff with flipper design like everything in life, use a massive flipper area and it impossible to use quickly, use a flipper that’s too heavy and it’s slow, use a flipper that doesn’t fit and no one likes it.
So a next gen flipper has to be the right area , at the right distance, that’s light and fits.
I always imagine the perfect design and aim for that. Not something 10% better, but something that’s out of the park amazing.
I’ve got a new double layered design that grabs each stroke and sends it efficiently out the back for maximum thrust. Design is easy , it’s getting the Human component to conform thats the issue.
What about something similar to the WAVE gloves? Why do the flippers need to be so long (I understand, for propulsion). I’d like to see a smaller, shorter type flipper so I could also stand on a board if needed.
What about something similar to the WAVE gloves? Why do the flippers need to be so long (I understand, for propulsion). I’d like to see a smaller, shorter type flipper so I could also stand on a board if needed.
I like the concept Monkstar1, it’s be cool if you could have a flipper with a flexible blade, probably be able to design it to collapse into a smaller shape for travelling too.
there always needs to be some rigidity to push the water, could be with side spines with a flexible vane or a solid blade. It’s all possible so I’m still building.
So hand crafting complete flippers is a bitch at best when all I want is a foot pocket that I can just swap blades in and out.
At a spear fishing shop I bought a pair of these foot pockets that are flexible enough to allow for changes in the template shape and the blades just slide in.
After 25 years of bodyboarding you have pictured my two most hated fins. Dafins: blade has no flex and the heal straps snap. Duckfeet a horrible inefficient long fin. slow down your quick blast ability and offer no hold while surfing.
Just follow a multiple times world champion (bodyboard and body surf) to the best fins on the market https://sciencebodyboards.net/collections/msviper
Fins are such perrsonal things. Your hated fins are revered by others. I always come back to Churchills, however, the latest I tried were a strange fit and the rubber hard. I tried the symmetrical vipers a while ago and they’re probably under the house somewhere, if I didn’t sell them. How do the asymetrical compare? One thing I noticed with fins, and I mentioned this to Brett is that they all affect your body differently, so some of the preference is likley due to this as well as what you want from a fin and the waves you surf ( heavy long bladed are more suited to long distances and long period swells).
So true. I was out of the water for a while, so I decided to go back to zero and start riding a paipo with Duck Feet. My duck feet are at least 40 years old and I had a hard time with them feeling too narrow on my feet and makig my legs sore from the work. I bought a pair of Da Fins, which are the standard for lifeguards here in Hawaii (it used to be duck feet). I had a similar experince with them being a little sore (width on on side), and a lot of work. Interestingly, the Da Fins have built in “skegs”. I don’t know if the paipo I used with those fins was better or the fins were doing it, but I was able to keep the board from sliding out.
Another funny thing is I’m also trying to make a set of swm fins, but I’m trying to make something that can keep in my pocket to ride surfboards without a leash. The goal is to put them on if I lose my board, catch a wave and bodysurf in to get my board. I need a little extra kick because I’m not in good enough swimming shape to catch any kind of incoming wave. I want to be able to catch a white water wave and just ride it straight in like we did back in the day. I found what might work for me if I can figure out the strap.
Bob, I’ll have to post some of the paipo creations I’ve done recently. I know you have an interest in them. I got into this after seeing Barry Morrison at Inter-Island Surboards earlier this year. He has a handful of old classic paipo boards, and it got me inspired.
Guys, I picked the Duck Feet because I’ve worn them for decades due to their stiff bladed instant drive, you only need one or two kicks to get on a wave with them. I don’t mind the stiff blade as it gives what you need when you’re kicking. It has a Smooth top surface that feels like good flow along the blade.
The Da Fins are nice to look at and light, but not even close to the power of the Ducks. The Da Fins also have a foot pocket that sits high on the blade which doesn’t feel as smooth thru the kick. I like the strake next to the forefoot but it should’ve gone further down the blade.
And both of them cramp my feet sideways.
Im sure there’s room to enhance the basic blade design.
Whats with the elongated format ???
I find All fins “work” and you need to put in the time the develope the correct kick and muscles that work with each design.
It’s interesting that the oldskool influences and lifeguard use keep the duckfeet/dafin legacy going In the fringe prone surfing variants paipos, mats ,bodysurf .
Where as in the bodyboard world which I would guess buy 90% of the fins hardly use duckfeet/dafins at all (maybe hawaii has a dafin following (back to the lifeguard influence)
Churchills were the originals and were natural rubber that why people like the old soft ones not the new hard ones (most new fins are made of this harder compound)
Churchills patent also ran out so there are many very similar fins on the market now.
Mike Stewart makes fins in 2 compounds. yellow dot stiff, orange dot soft.
after 25 years the most efficient least bodily impactful fins I have found are the symmetrical MS viper orange dots. I don’t personally get on with asymmetrical (Churchills) as they twist my knees, but i would expect with a few months of muscle building I could adjust to that.
Gday Sharkcountry,
It can take some time to get conditioned to wearing swim fins. I’ll see if I can get some photos of the boards Barry has. A while ago someone told me of a surf shop around Kailua that had some paipos on display but I wasn’t able to locate the shop, maybe it was Barry’s shop.
I’d be very interested to see your paipo boards/hear about them. Ratherr than hijack Surffoils thread feel free to e-mail me: bgreen@dyson.brisnet.org.au
Bob
IMO duckfeet are a long fin suited to slow powerful kicks, kind like diving fins, Pretty much every modern design fin is shorter working with a faster lighter kick.
I fell its like a powerful walk or a light jog.
Everybody has a different natural cadence.
