“Maybe I missed it: have you publicly distributed your board templates here at Sways?”
Yes Sir.
Pretty much all the boards I made have been shown here, lots of them were a build thread and the quantity of photos I submitted made it easy to anyone with a good eye and a good hand to copy them. Maybe not as f…g exactly as a scanner and machine would have but close enough to have a lot of fun with them.
Which, to me, is the reason why we keep doing it.
The day when a board won’t be called: “The Pipeliner” but instead: “XWDTH548KB”, not sure we’ll have as much fun…
If its board of the month (or year or whatever), then the process isn’t the biggest factor, if its build of the month, then Balsa’s comments make more sense, cuz the machine built it, well, halfway anyway. So maybe the AI robot shaper can enter it, lol.
But I’m sure we can all think of possible scenarios where there is some reason to include machine shapes, so I would say allow them if its something exceptional- i.e. an einstein formula like Malaroo (remember those mathematical masterpieces?) designed, or something else exceptional, why not, i mean a lot of HWS are made from cnc cut pieces, and those guys want to participate.
Build threads are fundamental to the forum, pictures and story of the process, tons of fun and learning.
If a blank is machined, there’s still an awful lot of room for creative hand craft in the finishing, after all. But if its the build we’re voting on, then handcrafting seems pretty much a given.
How about this - build of the year, handmade only and build thread required, board of the year - everything else, build thread required, build thread of the year, hand or machine doesn’t matter, and thread of the year, for the most entertaining thread on any topic.
Sorry its late here I’m up but not very focused lol,
BTW I think this is the first thread in the new forum with traction - yeah!
If we can get a flame war going on might be in the running for thread of the year!!
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So I’m new to the forum so not too much experience how you did that in the past.
I would not exclude anybody but rather do separate groups (eg. hand shaped only vs tool assisted vs tool only) if required. Excluding anybody in the beginning already is bad IMHO.
For the actual contest I would say once a quarter maybe (can be changed later on), build thread required and then not just only vote for one build/thread as a whole but I would do some sort of point system for each build
Eg
5/10 points for shape/design
8/10 points for actual build
8/10 points for the glass job
3/10 points for artwork
10/10 points for the thread
Total 34/50 points
I hope you get the idea.
So you could easily find the overall build of the quarter but also the best thread or best artistic approach and give some awards for those as well. So everyone, even new shapers have a chance for an award.
Fot the record - I’ve seen plenty of very cool boards built by beginners. The single biggest advantage the amateur has over the pro is time - we can go slow cuz our paycheck doesn’t depend on it. Also, pros probably gonna have less time to post a detailed thread, so amateur has same advantage there.
After this post balsa, I will not continue with your equivocation and thread hijack. I’ve posted photos, detailed graphics, figures, physics derivations (etc.) and precise explanations. Anybody with good skills could replicate some and approximate others.
“Photos” are not detailed, “printable templates.”
So “no,” you have not made your surfboard planshapes/templates publicly available as printable documents.
FTR just like any hand-drawn design, CAD gives designs whatever name their creator gives them. LMAO
Just a “few of many” things I have posted at Sways were used to create this blog.
Two of “many” examples (and often more than just one detailed post in any given thread alone).
I’ve only been doing this a few years, but I struggle when someone wants to take my readily available and increasingly popular build tools in the name of hand shaping, and then wants to allow power tools that are mythical and nearly impossible to find/buy.
I get it. Car forums are the same. At one point synchros in a transmission were for the weak, the art of rev matching is gone. Then fuel injection was cheating because there is an art to properly jetting a carb and these kids on their computers programming EFI wasn’t mechanics. Then dual clutch transmissions made everyone lament the death of the stick shift even though they’re faster in every way and more efficient. Now EVs are the devil even though they outperform in every way. The thing is, very few lament synchros or EFI anymore.
Everyone likes the way THEY did it. I’m sure the generation long gone thinks a Skil is cheating. It’s not. It’s using technology to make a process easier, more accurate, and more efficient.
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The difference between a Skil and a CNC router is that the Skil is still managed and directed by man’s hands, not by a program. What I am trying to support here is an ability gained through years of experience.
We are not doing the same thing. We are not even talking about the same thing anymore.
Again, anybody with some skill (with 2 “Ls” ) will be able to copy or just take inspiration from good photos. Granted, the result may not be mathematically similar to the original but, again, who needs this kind of precision? You, it seems. How come you’re not number one or at least in the top ten of surfing professionals if your numeric boards are so far ahead of everything else? Big question.
You’re leading a whole generation of guys who won’t be able to do anything with their bare hands and eyes, let alone without their computers. Is that the future? Not for me, and not for MY kids.
Last time.
Designing with math and science is not a program.
A program is required to combine the complex, human-mind generated data into a manageable and executable form.
The human mind is directing the CNC router or cutting disk.
Standard Surfboard Design software and CNC machines were incapable of designing and cutting my channel.
I was ghosted by 2 pro/custom shapers, and 18 CNC companies when I asked them to collaborate with me to build paid for prototypes — hand or machine shaped. Basically, they could not do it (math ellipsis)…
One CNC company told me they could do it, but end-results were pathetic.
Finally, a “gifted” Sways garage CNC shaper was able to convert my design data into usable CAD files.
After 4 years, I have finally found a truly “talented” young man who bought a CNC for starting a home business, who can do genuine “precision” cutting — a highly unique ability — he is indeed an artisan.
As I have said previously, I patented my designs to protect them from profiteers.
I even presented my hand-shaping method for the channel to one of the pro-shapers. He liked it but didn’t have time for building a paid-for prototype. I created the hand-shaping technique as an alternative to Computers also. The patent is available for public viewing at the USPTO (US Patent Nos 10,974,797 and 11,649,013). Happy to license it for commercial production.
I’d have to give a sh!t about surf/surfboard pros to become one. However, I am a retired professional scientist.
I still do plenty of work with hand tools.
Even designed and built a hand sanding tool for use in shaping my channel.
And there it is. The gap between generations. “If I suffered then so must you.” I cringe every time an opportunity to educate and accelerate a new guy’s learning curve falls victim to “keep working and building and in about 20 boards you’ll have something you might enjoy riding.” Go inhale a ton more foam, build a bunch of crap boards you won’t want to surf, fill the landfills with stuff that won’t break down, and spend $10k doing it. That learning process is wasteful, expensive, and unnecessary. We can do better.
The next generation has no interest in investing that kind of time or resources, and it’s selfish and silly of us to insist that they do. If they are going to compete with the big box brands they need to be given the same tools and ENCOURAGED to use them, and celebrated when they can produce a competing product and carve out a living doing it. If we are going to stifle the use of technology then we are limiting the future to big brands and handcuffing the future of the independent.
I’m relatively new but I love this forum. I think I’m one of the few who threw in some cash to keep it going when Mike asked. I love the art you all create. I love the culture and the disgust. I miss that part of my home town now that it’s been overrun by corporate executives, foodies, and mansions. But we will fade quickly into irrelevance if we don’t support the next generation and encourage them to use the tools available to create unique shapes and continue to push the evolution.
Amen RNoll! The Luddites always lament bygone days.
And the the idea that individuals acquire a high level of CAD and CNC skill overnight is inane.
My only CAD ability is with 2D PowerPoint — pretty good at it. I have no CNC skills.
My design skills are with math and science. And I have a solid grasp of data formatting and what CNC is capable of doing in the right hands…
I started shaping in 1968 near Biarritz. At the time, foam blanks were impossible to find in France and we had to do with balsa (not even long enough, we had to glue pieces together) then with some insulation foam. I won’t even tell you all the mess we had to go through, you would not believe me. No one was there to help us with advice or tricks, we had to learn everything by ourselves.
But I can tell you, I never felt like I “suffered”. I had fun all along and I still do, 55 years after.
My friend, I won’t convince you and you won’t convince me. We’d better stop this talk, nothing clever will be born of it.
If you have fun with equations, good on you. I never had and never will have. To each his own. Again, we are not doing the same thing.
I think what Balsa is encouraging here is something along the lines of the ultimate craftsman challenge, which was very cool. I loved Gene Cooper’s project the year he won.
I don’t know anything about spending 10k and building boards for the landfill, my first boards were inexpensive, challenging, and functional. My first few boards were hws built with scrap wood, then I bought several old ecotech blanks for maybe $30 bucks each and learned to shape foam, mostly with a surform.
My very first board was a copy, all the rest have been original designs hand drawn and hand shaped, nothing super special or groundbreaking, but functional enough for me.
I think different categories could accomodate different methods, but hand shaping is definitely rewarding and worth encouraging future generations to learn…
Heres a pic of my first ever board (wood), and my first foam board.
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First off, correct me if I’m wrong, but no one is threatening or attempting to take anything away from you. Except maybe the computer shaping machine which wants to take the satisfaction of hand shaping away from you, lol.
“Readily available and increasingly popular” - you mean like junk food, opioids, and credit card debt?
Hand shaping can be done with a surform and any inexpensive power planer. Nothing even remotely mythical about that.
Really, its challenging yet satisfying on a level hard to understand until you do it. Its like sex vs artificial insemination - one is more effective, the other more satisfying.
It might take years to get to a pro level of speed and confidence, but a first timer can do an acceptable job if you slow down and take your time.
Also, hand shaping is guided by the most powerful computer in the physical universe - the human brain, AND its connected to the heart as well.
Just something to think about.
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Your boards are beautiful. I love the wood one. I absolutely appreciate watching a pro with a planer. It’s a skill for sure.
You know what I find funny, all the tools and gauges and templates and 8’ bars with 20-odd fingers to get the rocker just right. Let’s not forget modern blanks with built in rocker profiles. Somehow we’ve embraced all of these technological advances and still fly the “hand shaping” banner. But put those tools into a scary computer and it’s blasphemy.
I can see the finished board that’s in my head on the screen before any foam gets cut. I can see the shadows in the concaves, look down the stringer from the tail, adjust what doesn’t “feel” right. I can also calculate the volume and add or remove it from anywhere on the board based on how I want it to perform.
If I took all that and printed out life sized slices every 3”, outline templates and rocker profiles and made wooden templates out of each of them. Then got a blank, a block of wood, and a sheet of 200-grit and meticulously sanded for a week until my hunk of foam fit perfectly inside my templates, could I be in your club? Is my board any less original than yours? I’m sure I would’ve put more time in and my hand tools are, well, actually powered by hand rather than electricity. Am I now accepted because I’ve labored an adequate amount, albeit all I was doing is continually light sanding and remeasuring? Or do I have to do it specifically with the tools you use, in the manner you use them?
I have no issue with any form of building. I have issue with the exclusion of a creative portion of the community that I believe also happens to be the future of the community. Just because something was drawn on a screen rather than on a piece of paper does not mean it was plagiarized, or any easier. It does not make the design any less original or the process any less fulfilling.
Like is often the case throughout history, I’d suspect most who are against it have never tried it. Maybe it’s for fear that they might like it? God forbid they might learn something new that would further elevate their skills.
I still think we are missing the biggest part here. How does the bloody board surf?
Feels like walking through a sports car museum and judging them by fit and finish.
I’d love to see a thread with a stated objective and an honest assessment of whether it was achieved and the builder’s opinion of why or why not.