Carbon Fiber/ 1 # EPS

General Discussion
1

For my next build i want to make a board that is very strong, but still very light. I want to use 1 # eps foam from HD or Lowes, with a balsa stringer. I am thinking about doing this 1 of 3 ways:

  1. With 1 - 6 ounce CF bottom, 1 - 6 ounce CF top

          (will i need a deck patch for this?)

      (should i do a layer of 4 oz e-cloth over both of these?)  if so (fiberclass over the CF, or should i do the CF over the fiberglass?)

  2. With 2 - 4 oz E glass bottom, 2 - 4 oz E glass top, with CF tape for rails. And maybe a straight line down the middle?

  3. With 2 - 4 oz bottom, 3 - 4 oz top.

My first board was a 1 # eps board where i just did 1-4 oz bottom and 2 - 4 oz top. This was just because i had never glassed before and didnt want to ruin a 50 $ blank. I like the 1 # foam because of how light it is, but i am worried about strength for the deck. I am not worried about the heat problems with CF since i live in washington (even the warmest of days wont cause much problems). any help would be great.

2

Hi -

In my opinion 6 oz carbon is still 6 oz cloth. 1 lb foam is still 1 lb foam.

Try some test panels but I think you’ll find that in spite of carbon allegedly being a stiffer fabric it will definitely not be good enough by itself as a single layer in the 6 oz weight. On the deck you might well end up with something like 4oz+carbon+4oz for anything close to dent resistant.

A noted stand up paddleboard designer is doing a bamboo veneer stomp patch + 4 oz S cloth + carbon on the deck. Greg Loehr says bamboo veneer is approximately the same as a layer of 6oz glass. On 1.5 lb density EPS I’m using double 6 with a stomp patch on the deck. Those are holding up relatively well on some heavily used longboards. Do the math.

With options you’ve laid out I’d say #3 but how did your first board hold up?

Head on over to Standupzone.com and see the pics of the SUP to which I refer… http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=3481.0

3

This is slightly off topic, but not too far:

Why would you spend the bucks on carbon fiber cloth, then go cheapo on the blank/core? it’s better to get a good rocker, and make a standard glass board, then make a high tech POS. I’ve never seen a good board made out of Home Depot glued up crappy .5 lb foam.

Get a good EPS blank in 1.5-2 lb foam. Get the right rocker for the board your trying to make. Give your shaping at least half a fighting chance of making a decent board.

All the rest of the glassing stuff I agree with John. I really don’t see the benefits of carbon fiber in a surfboard…unless it is used under wood for better recoil memory of wood, a la Timber Flex WMD construction. Carbon fiber used as a shell with standard epoxies is rather stiff.

My opinion of 1 lb foam is…don’t use it. The reduction in weight is minimal compared to the grief it will give you during constructon.

4

which is of course bulllshit!

plenty of awesome boards made out of 1 pound and less foam

is stronger and lighter then any other construction if you have half a brain

these boards are fair wiith beyond showroom finish

1 pound foam

5

"which is of course bulllshit!

plenty of awesome boards made out of 1 pound and less foam

is stronger and lighter then any other construction if you have half a brain"

If we all agreed Swaylock’s would be boring…

I was talking to Resinhead about glassing and he got me thinking…Head says that I need to think about having equal amounts of cloth on both sides…most boards have more cloth on the deck…

…now , where on Earth did I put the other Half of my brain ???

…Stingray…

6

Hi Paul -

No doubt the 1 lb is fine with composite sandwich skin. Even thin veneer is OK as a skin core. The OP stated three options, none of which involved vacuum bagging or composite skin construction.

The compsand method and Huie’s finishes are valid avenues if you choose those routes. A fine wet/dry sanded finish may still be tops but I realize that is an entirely different controversy. http://www.liddlesurfboards.com/wetsanding.html

I think Resinhead’s comments were in regards to stock 1 lb insulation panels sold through a major hardware store chain in US. They are in thin sheets and generally require two or more to be glued together to obtain adequate thickness for a surfboard blank. Rocker is sometimes added during the gluing process and sometimes cut after several slabs are laid up. A general pain in the ass in my opinion but yet another (and IMO second rate) way to skin the cat.

I think Huie is using the premade multi-density blanks on his and you are cutting your own profiles from block? Either method is farther along than the laid up insulation panel method.

In my opinion carbon fiber on surfboards has as much of an eye candy function as anything. Please don’t discount the value of eye candy… why else use exotic woods and pursue a high gloss finish if not for visual attraction? In my own market research studies carbon fiber was the 100% first choice winner in appearance.

7

how the f####k did i get involved here how the f####k did i get involved here

8

I could honestly care less about eye candy. I just want to make a board that is super light, and super strong. i was hoping that strength of the carbon fiber would kind of offset the weakness of the crappy foam. 2 # foam is just soo heavy. So would my best bet for having a light/strong board be a comp/sand type construction. Because I had an idea about using balsa skins, but doing only the deck and bottom. NO rails. I dont have the materials to vacuum bag, and when you wrap a couple layers of glass over the rails, the extra strength is simply not needed. Just another idea.

9

I have calculated how much a carbon fiber board, vs. a standard glass board would cost. (both using excell foam blank, and RR epoxy).

  1. Standard 4 oz E cloth - Total = $104.

  2. Carbon fiber 6 oz (1 top, 1 bottom) - Total = $138.

Questions. WOuld i be gaining much by using the carbon fiber (lighter, same strength?)?, How does carbon fiber sand, is it difficult? Any further help on this would be awesome. Thanks!

10

hi , i made a couple of carbon fibre boards a few years back , it was the start for me of lighter and stronger boards, you can get both top and bottoms out of a 3 metre length (short boards) by cutting the templates with the noses over lapping, so saving a metre of cloth (1 metre wide carbon),

i used a light weight poly blank at the time but the boards did/nt turn out ligter because the cloth weighs 6 oz so the board was still the same weight but maybe stronger, it still deck dented just the same,

carbon is brittle so i would think you would be better with glass either side of the carbon over 1 lb eps, plus you would definately need to vent the core , just a lttle sun soon heats up the carbon,

balsa sandwhich boards are lighter and stonger with a 1 lb eps core but are difficult to make plus all the equipment you will need, i have made several of these,

my last attempt at lighter and stronger is with an extruded polystyrene , i think they are chinese made , look for ixps foam on google, these blanks seem to have it all , ultra light , water proof ,white , i am making a 6ft 3 ins x 18 1/2 x2 1/2 , 4 oz bottom , 6 x 2 plus 2 patch on the deck , it just needs a sanding coat on the bottom and it weighs 4 3/4 lb and is super tough ,

carbon does look good on boards but its not anywhere near the ultimate for light/strong , probabaly vacuumed layers of s cloth over 2lb eps or an extruded core would be the ultimate with regards to weight strength and cost , pete



11

Had a Dick Van Straalen carbon fibre/epoxy and that board’s deck was super strong. No deck denting. In good clean waves the responsiveness made feel like I thinking too slowly. That alone is worth the price of admission.

12

Hey CF,

I had a look at one of dicks boards in byron one day some time ago, look awesome but when i picked it up i was very surprised at how heavy it was. how did you find yours with regards to performance?

cheers

13

Hey KO,

if your after light for the reasons i am then you need to get a vac system.

otherwise it will be hard to do what alot of us do on here to get the weights we do.

I have been into doin vac lams at the moment with 1pd foam and 2inch dow rail bands and 1x4oz all over very very light but it aint gonna last like a full sandwich board.

but its what im into at the moment, tried the heavy side of the scale and my surfing doesnt enjoy heavy boards, (i like to be all over it)

if you can you can generally dig up old eps from coldstores walls or building sites, then hot wire as you need it.

any way get a pump dude, you will love it!

14

The fish I had was quite light. Never did weigh it though. This is the board I’m referring to with regard to performance.

The board Dick is making me is an 8’ allrounder. I already have a Poly one with resin tint and its quite heavy and Dick said the new one won’t be a lot lighter but will be more responsive and paddle better. I’ll also have a concave deck on the new carbon fibre board which will have my chest closer to the water to aid paddleability.

Will be finished soon so I’ll be able to do back to back comparisons on them shortly.

[img_assist|nid=1041779|title=fish|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=75|height=100]The carbon fish

15

Very cool, look forward to hearing bout it.

its a pity dick doesnt come on here (as far as i can tell anyway?), he has been building all sorts of creations with all sorts off tech for quite a while, be good to hear his ideas etc.

cheers

16

to many big names discard 1 pound crap eps sheets as no good because they dont stand to profit from people using them. my cores cost 7$US (15 nz)as oposed to a marco blank which costs 90$US(180 nz)

both suck water and the cheap foam works ten times better in compsand

i rode my first board i built today that was a mal and then shortboard and then reskined again… core is the same 3 years old no dings had water through it twice… feel like a new board and i can trampoline on it

so it is BULLSHIT

one pound home depo rules if used corectly

you dont need to glue sheets together

just shape it flat and bend in the rocker when you skin it

17

dick is a legend but his carbon method is not exactly on the ball imo . more a gimmick . carbon is stupidly expensive and nothing near as strong as a wood sandwich over one pound foam

18

I’m going the carbon option with him as he may not be shaping too much longer and I’d like a durable board from him while I can still get it.

At his age he’s probably done enough innovation and seems like Rasta has jumped ship so the development of stronger/lighter boards may not be as important to him these days.

I’m not deluding myself that I’m ripping on his boards I just want a good tough, responsive board that will let me feel good about my surfing. Nice to have a board which is different from the hordes too.

19

carbon is step backward

retro . so appropriate on a retro shape! :wink:

the cost of 4 meters of carbon 380$

enough for a pump, 6 liters of kinetics resin and

you could make 3 compsand blanks that are stronger and lighter then the cost of the carbon alone

and the carbon ones will still snap

carbon is retro

20

The compsand method and Huie’s finishes are valid avenues if you choose
those routes. A fine wet/dry sanded finish may still be tops but I
realize that is an entirely different controversy. http://www.liddlesurfboards.com/wetsanding.html

john not quite sure what you are saying there. but i done my personal boards like that

1968 after finding out that was a shit way. i got a beter wet sanding system which i use to this day

dont quite understand why anyone would want to live in the dark

instead of hijaking this guys thread we should start a wet sand thread

**happy easter.
**