Carbon rails - history? patented?

General Discussion
1

My friend has a small surfboard factory in OZ and he has been building

some EPS boards with carbon fiber rails as an alternative to composite

boards. They work great with lots of power for small to medium waves

but he was told that the technology would be protected by a recent

patent/patent application and that he could get into trouble selling

those boards.

Does anybody know more about this patent claim or does anybody know

the history of this technology which must be dating way back to

sailboard times? Any documentation available on this?

cheers,

chico

2

hey chico

i should dig up some of the boards i made 6-7 years ago. they were eps stringerless with carbon rails. im sure greg L tried them a long time ago too. im not sure where the ones i made are but i didnt have a digi cam then and dumped lots of stuff when i moved to newer factory. bert will know of a guy named eric in perth who did a few too way b4 me. young hayden might have to dig real deep in someones pockets to defend/enforce his patent as every bandwagoner seems to be doing them now… im prertty sure tim stamps was doing them b4 hayden too

3

mhhhmmm, suppose it should be all right :slight_smile:

4

Carbon rails?

Surfboard patents is an interesting subject, maybe worthy of a thread of its own. A patent isn’t that hard to get- protecting it (or whether its even worth the expense of protecting it)- is a whole different story.

As far as your friend and the carbon rails- he could market his design under a catchy name (“USB Cable”? “Zip Drive?”), to distinguish it from some other carbon-fiber rail board, file a trademark on the name (for (a) specific class(es) of goods) and then launch a whole new enterprise… I see it now- white t-shirts with black sleeves with “Zip Drive” screened across the front…an empire is born…

5

Hey Feral-

Not sure of the history of the stringerless Carbon rail boards, but I don’t think the concept is anything too new. In my opintion the Greenough spoon things were a similar concept. Was he first? Dunno. I was initially inspired by the layups I saw on prototype “team” snowboards about 14 yeasrs ago. Never made any surfboards though. The Clark Foam vaccum was in full reign! Then the parabolics Greg(Loehr) had going on and what Bert was doing reignited the thinking. I blended what I had saw with the snowboards and what was going on with the paraboic rail thing and applied it to a custom handshape. Something new? Don’t think so, but my take on a direction the surfboard could be going. Apparently others got to thinking as well.

Point of the story…

I do remember Billy Hamilton had a patent on putting fabric(hawaiian) on the rails in the 90’s. I beleive he enforced it on a fellow board builder…

So I guess anything’s possible…

I’m sure Larry at Fibreglas Fin Co. will know the story. He knows eveyone and is good like that.

Tim

www.surfboardsbystamps.com

6

A “Patent Pending” is virtually useless as a defence of a company’s “innovation”. Its more likely to be :-

a) - A marketing ploy, a claim in the marketplace…

b) - An attempt to bolster the perceived worth of a company in the eyes of potential investors… ( Same as “a” in a sense…)

The actual patent can take up to 18 months to pass, and frequently these applications fail;- often because there is a demonstrable history of the use of the tech or idea by a person or persons prior to the acceptance of a patent. An actual patent is absurdly expensive to upkeep.

Someone better hope to gain a massive market share just to make the payments worth making.

There are means to object to patent applications. A department of the Aust. government called “IP Australia” has been established which has a system to assist inventors and innovators whose employers or competitors have applied for patent without consent. As of 1997, any employer who utilises an employee’s invention must obtain written permission to do so.

An interested party is able to access the details of applications, via IP Aust.

I did carbon rails in 2002…yes, on EPS…I’m sure there are others. The only way I can see a patent being taken by the party in question is in relation to the technique of applying the carbon to a rail, not the simple fact of carbon rails. Even then, the many ways to skin a cat means the change to the tech would be minimal to circumvent a patent.

A patent on a way of doing it, yes, the finished product, no…

I’d be wary of patents, If I could even go there…because…If no-one else is able to make the a similar item, then the validation of that concept is driven only by one owners ability to market it and prove it in the marketplace, rather than by widespread acceptance. Thats a lot of magazine space and an uphill battle in the mainstream - It better be a damn good product or well backed by hype if you want to push it as yours and yours alone. I.e - If Simon had patented the thruster, it may have died along with his old label “Energy” and not for lack of merit, but Simon had the combined push of dozens of convert manufacturers.

Josh

7

George Greenough had carbon rails already on his kneeboards way back in the 70’s. And he most likely was not the first. The technology also was around in the 80’s in sailboarding. If I remember right, Fox in Florida used them too. Need to look in surf museums, are there any on the net?

The patent may cover something else in relation to the carbon rail like a special way to apply them .

It would be interesting to know what kind of patent we talk about (yes, there are different ones). Have to ask my uncle, he deals a lot with that stuff.

8 
Howzit Stamps, Yes Bill did patent the cloth rails, but he had to show that it was not just a cosmetic thing but was a structual process in order for it to be patented. He did enforce his claim with the patent which is his choice. Funny story, I did  some boards that I did the rail with sponge paint designs and people thought it was rail cloth and that I would hear from Bill who is a friend,I explained what it was and wasn't worried. The thing that always interested me was that the cloth could in no way be stronger than fiberglass, plus the technique is not that easy to do. Aloha,Kokua
9

Can someone share the tips to a nice trimline for carbon rails? Thanks

10

Petey, carbon comes in tape form of various widths with finished sides. Just squeegee carefully.

Patents are useless, if Microsoft cant stop thieves copying their work what hope has anyone else. Several countries dont recognise US/UK/AUS patent laws at all.

Back in 94’ I caught a professional shaper copying an Aust. pat.pending I had on surfboard design ,(concave outline).

After paying a lot of legal fees all he had to his name was a 71’ Kombi and a bad attitude, in hindsight I should’ve taken the Kombi !

The whole episode was a disaster for both of us.

If you havent got money to burn in defence of your patent, dont bother.

Brett.

11

Thanks for reply- How do you get a clean trimline w/carbon rails? A light under board? A gauge to re-mark tapeline on the top of your carbon after glassed? I did a little sample and noticed how hard it is to see where your original tapeline is . Thanks Petey

12 
Howzit SURFFOILS, Is it hard to find Carbon tape where you live. The last time I ordered it I was told it was hard to get since the military is buying as much as possible for their own use. I had very little to choose from.Aloha,Kokua
13

Kokua, Our biggest supplier, FGI, only imports whats left over from Japan,or so the story goes. The front man says what we get here is partly surplus or unwanted stock so you guys in the US get the bulk of available stock first. Tape is randomly available here in small quantities.

SF.

14
Quote:

Thanks for reply- How do you get a clean trimline w/carbon rails? A light under board? A gauge to re-mark tapeline on the top of your carbon after glassed? I did a little sample and noticed how hard it is to see where your original tapeline is . Thanks Petey

This may sound a little stupid, but what I did was lay tape down over the glassed CF tape over the original tape line on the foam. I used it as a cut guide and it worked pretty well. I think the guys with the force within, doing cutlaps for a living, could probably do it in their sleep, but us mere mortals have to look for extra guidance!

One thing I learned was that the loops in the edge of the biaxial tape will not lay down and have to be trimmed, so keep that in mind.

Another thing I learned yesterday is that someone in H-E-double hockey sticks invented uni-directional CF tape. That was some of the most difficult, hard to lay down, hard to saturate, hard to anything stuff I’ve ever used! And on an even sadder note, it doesn’t look as cool as the biaxial stuff…

Enough whining, I’m gonna go get a beer!

15

Microsoft, FCS, Brian Whittey all know how hard it is to defend a patent. Especially when one word “replacement” can circumvent the patent.

However, there is a place that gives away it’s knowledge for free. MIT has put most of it’s courses up on the WWW for free.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2001/ocw.html

check them out here

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/courses/index.htm

Of course I wonder if they could afford to do this if they were not so heavily financially endowed … by the royalties from their patents.

16
Quote:
Microsoft, FCS, Brian Whittey all know how hard it is to defend a patent. Especially when one word "replacement" can circumvent the patent.

However, there is a place that gives away it’s knowledge for free. MIT has put most of it’s courses up on the WWW for free.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2001/ocw.html

check them out here

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/courses/index.htm

Of course I wonder if they could afford to do this if they were not so heavily financially endowed … by the royalties from their patents.

You are only showing one side of their business model.

Nullum gratuitum prandium.

17

Who said it’s my job to tell the whole story?

Hopefully the info I provided will be enough to peak interest (in a rare few) and send those people who are interested in learning more to the websites which I also provided. The info you seek is there in my post it’s just not spelled out on a silver platter.

Actually there is a rush among American universities to open satellite campuses around the world. Sunday’s NYT’s article http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/education/10global.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin Namely in oil rich middle east conutries. Makes that business model easier to understand, since the research money here has dried up.

18

DSD, Here’s one method to trim a carbon layup. Tape off the board where you want to trim the carbon. Add two or three extra layers - maybe four - of tape over the original tape line. The extra layers of tape will sit higher than the surface of the board. After your lamination has properly cured you will be able to see where the edge of your cut line is by the “relief” of the carbon over the multiple layers of tape compared to the carbon over the surface of the board. Cut along this “bump” which basically identifies the edge of your carbon lamination. Trim the nose and tail first - you can cut vertically with a single edge razor blade. After trimming the nose and tail carefully lift the tape along the cut line until the carbon over the tape is off the surface of the board. Put a little bit of a pulling pressure on the tape and carbon that will be trimmed off with one hand and at the same time trim the lap with the razor horizontal to the surface of the board by pulling the razor in the opposite direction of the pulling pressure of the other hand. This is fundamentally the same method (without the extra tape) used to trim colored / taped off laminations whether transparent or opaque. QED. (Quite easily done !)

Kind regards,

Steve Coletta

19

SNIP:

Quote:

Quote:

Microsoft, FCS, Brian Whittey all know how hard it is to defend a patent. Especially when one word “replacement” can circumvent the patent.

However, there is a place that gives away it’s knowledge for free.

Nullum gratuitum prandium.

The members here at Swaylocks deserve a 4 week vacation with, ( or away) from their families for all of the great ideas and secrets they willingly offer for free. There must be millions of man hours of bloody hard yakka thats condensed into this forum, and the experts are always here to answer questions too.

Now thats knowledge for free !!

Brett.

20

Just another example of the export of US tech.