Concave for Control?

Too right Crafty! Too many mismatches of words and interpretations here.

I would say the rail of a concave board ‘sucked’ into the wave face better, but when going rail to rail the concave shape gave ‘lift’ during the transition.

I rode a lot of ‘v’ and rolled ‘v’ boards and the bottom shape there ‘sucked’ onto the wave. I enjoyed the connection. To compensate for that I used thickness (bouyancy) to give me lift. The thicker rails ‘sucked’ into the wave face well, but did not privide the same ‘bite’ sensation as thinner rails. But too thin ‘bit’ too much, knifing into the water.

Now, years later, I’m still trying to put ‘everything’ that was ‘good’ into one board. And of course that will not suit everyone…

" Oh my god…

I’ve lost my mind… seems either concaves do all kinds of stuff, or maybe nothing much at all… "

–something like the Aloe Vera of the surfboards

MD – always a pleasure – I need Speed!

I was talking to a guy in the surf this morning - he’s been riding Maurice Cole’s new deep concave boards - He had a 6’2 x 19 1/2 x 2 7/8 (I think) the board has about 1/2 inch or more of concave with the deepest point between the feet. He says the board works best in big waves - 6-8 foot Bells. There would seem to be no question about control there - MC has been making tow boards with huge concaves for a while - everything about those things is about control - weighted blanks - small surface area and MC is putting deep concaves into them.

Woke up with a clear mind and read your post. If you push the concave to a maximum extreme the rails become the boards fins. So if you wanted to ride a finless board, extreme concave is the way to go. Didnt Carl Olsen make one of those?

Ok but heres the funny shit, for how long have concaves been sold to the masses as lift, squirt drive speed? I guess if you tell young hot surfers hey concaves are for control they’ll look at you like you got 6 heads. I suppose most of those guys are out of control anyway - physically and mentally.

I would also think (based on my own experiments) that at extremes, concave shape and its placement is a HUGE factor, and maybe the reason why some concaved boards work good and some dont (assuming fins are ok) . I always felt it needed to peak between the feet and fade to zero outside of the feet. But Im not riding concaves anymore so I’ll let others figure that one out.

Btw, the whole concave thing discussed here could be easily mechanically modelled in tested. Changing that one variable on a board isnt the easiest thing in the world. Thats why I like fins so much - its like chaning the motor of your car…which btw, Ive also done many moons ago. A man with kids can only take on so many not for profit activities…I suppose food farming is in my future.

nother thought…

I recall interviews with Gerry Lopez, when he started riding (Brewer?) down rails at Pipe, he said it was the biggest leap in performance.

Isnt a down rail a microcosm of board concave?

Stated differently, isnt concave partly an extension or continuation of the down rail? Concave making a down rail more ‘down’, isnt it?

hmmm…

Maybe deep single concave makes the board into a sort of catameran hull.

One of the best boards I ever had was Nev that had super deep concave with extreme tail rocker.The board actually had a laminate on the tail that said kick tail.

From personal experience a good single concave gets up on plane faster and has drive like no other especially when the waves get some size to them.I surfed the sunova in some overhead waves and I was having trouble geting the board to stay stuck to the face of the wave when I really wanted to come off the bottom hard to go straight up and hit the lip.I would actually spin out on my bottom turn and do a face plant not cool but funny for people on the beach.

Griffin I think is able to control the flat bottom by using his fin designs and overall shape of the board.

Mike D single concave boards seem have pretty damn good control of the water and putting the energy harnessed into a better surfing experience.THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND I DON’T HAVE HEMIS!!!

Snow Plow

Anyone ever had to shovel snow? If you had to you could put foot straps on that thing and ride it with a kite. Minus the lateral humps it would probably work. Nose to tail deep concave.

Imagine how snow is moving across the surface as it plowing in a diagonal line. Then picture it being a flat surface as well as a double concave or vee.

I’ll re-state my original post on this subject. When properly applied, concaves provide lift and control.

I haven’t seen anything here that even comes close to changing that position.

mike@coilsurf.com

ok so i surfed about 7 hours in headhigh glassy point break over 2 days maybe about 40 odd waves. of which at least 20 were reasonable to good enough quality for 3 to 4 turns in the pocket. this was on a new 5 11 i built that is 20 wide with standard nose rocker and 2 inch in the tail its a wide outline board with a pulled tail and squash tail. glass on fins setback to about 3 and 10. 5. cant at 8 degrees. medium boxy rail. edges tucked through to the tail. 6mm single concave from chest to front fins where it gos to flat… im 38 6ft 3 and 87 kg. i found the board squirelly on the drop. it wanted to escape away from me. ( i attribute that directly to the concave bottom) i found it hard to get to feet early enough to control the board that was racing away on me and trying to buck me off. it took me a good day to set my feet right. the board is very fast on the rail on high lines and pumps s turn smoothly. the rail feels engaged for s turn speed on high lines. . the most interesting aspect of the board that is different to all my other boards is that it turns more radically with less speed. in other words a re entry with no speed and complete full rail cutties with less speed. also the board definately turns better in critcal parts of the wave and cuts back tight in the pocket. i dont think the board is any faster then any other board . but it definately allows for tighter and critical turns at lower speeds and fatter section. i guess having a shortboard makes it easier for these types of turns and this is definately a contributing factor. but i would say this of concaves

squirelly on the takeoff

faster on high lines

harder turns with less speed

feels more buttery and slippery ( not necesarily faster)

drives is the same as flat board

yes it does seem so!

but thankfully my sanity is preserved by finding one phrase in this thread which agrees with my experiences with a short, wide single concave when ridden in heavy chop or texture. But my board had only about 2 or 3mm of concave, nothing like the 6mm of Silly’s

Well “control” is a very broad term. An aircraft enthusiast once explained to me that the stealth fighter was built deliberately unstable - ie left to its own devices without its “fly by wire” and pilot input it would be incapable of maintaining a steady glide. The reason for this is that that the unstable airframe reacts more quickly to direction changes. So I suppose at a stretch deliberately introducing instability to a surfboard with a wide single concave to make it more reactive could be considered as giving the rider extra control.

I have some old posts that refer to concave:

Dave Verall’s choppy design thread - I have two posts towards the end, the first one has a pic of wooden steps in front of the sea. I go on to say that the double concave unlike the single concave is stable.

http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1029469

Some of my replies to Surding’s watch this vid thread talk about concave and the opposite of concave - roll.

http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/please-take-time-to-check-out-video

and a more in depth study of McCoy roll compared to Al Merrick concave:

http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1014746

Very interesting - perhaps that’s what MC is doing with the concave on the tow boards using it to create a bit of suction to keep the boards engaged with the face at high speed.

With his short board that use this deep concave they seem to have a lot of volume so maybe this suction effect is there to help control that volume, which to me is a bit weird considering McCoy is using dome and rolled vee with thick wide tails on his nuggets to do the same thing.

Check:

http://www.mauricecole.com/

to see pics of the boards in question.

In fig. 1 the wetted surface of the bottom of a board is illustrated. Obviously the wetted area changes constantly, the illustration is meant to be a example.

In fig. 2 illustrates the force of planing developed for a flat plank (ref. Savistky). Also, in fig. 2, I've overlaid rectangles on the Savitsky's force curve [which is actually force per unit area] for eventual comparison with fig. 3.

In fig. 3 I've indicated what I suspect is the actual velocity of the flow under the board with the orientation as given. You can see its not completely nose-to-tail, and that's important. Also, as illustrated, the force curve is not the same as for a flat plank if you put a concave wall in place. (I've only put in the one side, see below.) The contribution to the overall force of planing due to its increased angle of attack relative to the flow is shown as an increase in the force located on the wave-side section of the board, or rail. (Sure it's all guessing at this point as to the particular form of the force profile, but I believe what's shown is fairly reasonable, at least with respect to the big picture.)

In fig 3 I've only drawn in the wave-side concave wall contribution. I suspect you could argue that the beach-side concave wall contribution reduces the angle of attack. Whether or not this reduces the force of planing along that side of the board in any significant way, I don't know. But it would be interesting if it did.

Of course this is without consideration of fins. In particular, slap some laterals, toe/canted or otherwise on this puppy and things change.

Where's this going?

In a recent thread 'Drive Defined' by LeeV, most of the definitions that were offered provided some real insight into how the term is currently used by surfers. It was interesting. Though it would appear that my interpretation, that it relayed an impression or sensation of a smooth and uninterrupted acceleration didn't go over well. Nevertheless I believe that claims as to 'lift'* and 'control' being made in this thread suffer in the same way as claims of 'drive' do – they don't relate to the physics, but to a sensation or impression as expressed by the individual. It's that old problem - what you want, and how to go about getting it being two different things.

Anything that gets a surfer closer to a feel of control is likely to invoke a positive response. In describing the response the surfer is likely to use words that come closest to reflecting the quality of his experience. For instance, if you feel that you no longer have to lean into the wave, or put a lot of your weight on the inside rail as compared to what you did on some other board, the overall sensation or impression may very well be one of enhanced 'control' and 'lift', and again I'm referring to lift's more common usage, not the more precise engineering usage.

After reading through the posts here, what is clear is that some obviously like concaves more than others, for whatever reasons. For me, the lesson is that personal choice in how something gets done, matters.

I'm not too sure about nowadays, but way back when, you could buy a stock GM car and modify into something with a little more power. But unless you modified a lot more than the engine, you usually wound up with a car that felt a lot different all around, and to some degree awkward, relative to the original product. GM spent a lot of money on research getting the 'feel' of their cars right, or right for the market they wished to sell into, right down to the foam in their seats or the texture of the plastic dashboard. The point being that some people might prefer leaning into the wave or on a rail, it may provide them with a more of a sense of being 'in touch' with the wave, or maybe they just don't want the help a concave might offer.

If concaves truly were a solution to 'lift' – again I'm using the more common usage of the term – then you'd likely see it used as an alternative to the 'fish' solution, and its not. As indicated in some of the posts, its [concave's] effect would seem to be roughly proportional to the conditions under which it is surfed – the faster the flows, the more impact it's likely to have. But the faster the flows, the more powerful the force of planing, and arguably the less likely you'd need the additional 'lift' (again, used in the more common sense.) In fact the faster the flow, the narrower the tail section of the boards that are likely to be used to surf it.

One additional bit of nonsense.

Though it was sort of refreshing that none of the posts evoked Bernoulli or the Venturi effect (the exception being crafty's link to the Nick Carrol's RealSurf post), for the better part of the last century, and well into this one, people have nevertheless felt the need to – to evoke Bernoulli, that is.

The Bernoulli principle or Venturi effect is a principle or effect that comes out of an energy argument, which also incorporates a continuity argument (as in conservation of mass, or in the case of an incompressible liquid like water, conservation of volume – basically a 'what goes in, must come out' argument.)

As a flow with a given speed moves into an expanse, its speed will decline and its hydrostatic pressure will increase. The converse also being the case, move into a constriction and the speed of the flow will increase and the hydrostatic pressure will decrease. (That's not all there is to it, but that's the form of the principle which is commonly evoked, call it Bernoulli Lite.)

So as the flow encounters the concave (an expanse) it slows, and the hydrostatic pressure increases, hence 'lift'? It might. Bernoulli's principle has been borne out time and time again. But is the effect operating here to any significant degree, let alone the cause of the sensation of 'lift'? In my opinion it's unlikely. Remember, the speed of the flow must slow, hence the force of planing is reduced? Not to mention there are a lot of other things going on which are likely to contribute far more significantly.

...bonzer's have it both ways?

In fact many of the proponents of the Bonzer design evoke Mr Bernoulli both coming and going. That is the flow enters the expanse (concave) and then it's restricted again by other contours or fins. The latter effect causing the speed of the flow to increase providing a bit of a jet or rocket like effect?. But I guess that makes the whole 'lift' as applied to bonzers argument a zero-sum design element, if that's what concaves and convexes did. (I've assumed that most would see the 'rocket' or 'jet' argument as kind of ridiculous.) Actually, less than zero, for to restrict the flow would increase the drag dramatically. Which may very well be apart of their [bonzers] charm, but who would want to admit that slowing a board down and enhancing the sense of 'control' under those conditions in which the bonzer runs best, is just what they were looking for?

Whatever turns your screws

All this relates back to personal preference, or perception. Some don't mind sitting a little more on the tail of a board to slow it down, some the opposite. Some don't mind leaning on a rail, some prefer it not to so much. Or maybe its just a matter of sensitivity, as in some when they lean, they like to lean hard, others prefer a lighter touch. Not everyone liked the smooth ride GM cars offered, among other things about GM cars.

Out of the trees, on two feet and a little increase in brain power... okay, so what's next?

I'm inclined to believe that the big steps in surfboard evolution have been made, and now it's all small increments. And those increments are about fine tuning a product for a given market. Like GM's worrying about whether or not the foam in their seats gave male riders (of their chosen market) the right sensation in their balls. It may sound funny, but why not, if the portion of the market you're after wants it. Surfing is about fun – it's pure pleasure, and pleasure comes in many forms... find the form it takes for your chosen market and give it to them.

kc

*Note on Lift and Drag. A given force can be resolved into any number of components. The orthogonal components of lift and drag are simply a useful convenience. How a force can be resolved depends on the reference frame being used to analyze it. Hard to believe but if you give me a lift and a drag and I can find a reference frame in which they 'disappear' and your once again left with original singular force, the direction of which being invariant.

Sorry to get all mathy on you, but it's just not my experience that when some guy is going on about his sensation of 'lift' in the line-up or in the parking lot, he's strictly adhering to the engineering definition – my guess would be he's just trying to relay some sensation and 'lift' as in it's common usage either captures it, or comes as close to capturing it as he able to at that moment.

.

I have to ask… Control in what sense? Control in terms of the ability of the board to be controlled by the rider? Stability control? Speed control? Sensitivity? Responsiveness?

I get the lift part. But I can’t seem to get my head around the control part.

It seems to me that increased lift is not caused by increased pressure beneath the board due to velocity change, but rather the contour’s increased surface area and the shape’s ability to essentially capture more upward flow under the board - water rising up the face of the wave - and therefore create more lifting force. This is particularly useful on boards designed for smaller surf, when you need to eek out as much energy as possible out of a relatively weak source. I like full single concaves on boards for small waves. I also like subtle concaves on boards for faster waves, but I go to vee in the tail for release behind the fins, particularly quads - but that’s another application of the concave, and another thread.

The only aspect of control I can fathom for a single concave would be on hard turns, where the bottom would allow the rail to, again, sort of “grab” more water, driving the rail a little deeper. But that’s a very specific scenario, and not what I would consider a general “increase in control,” if that’s what you mean.

NJ,

I’m no MikeD, but I would like to give my opinion on your questions.

I think that “control” means “the ability of the rider to control the board”, which includes all of the factors mentioned. Stability, speed, sensitivity, and resopnsiveness.

With regards to convcave, I think the control comes from the increased AOA that the concave gives the planing surface relative to a flat or vee contour. This means that it takes less rider effort to increase lift by putting the board on the rail, thereby subjecting the planing surface to more flow. It also means the more rider effort (i.e. putting the board further on the rail) leads to even more lift.

What this doesn’t mean is that concave makes it easier to put a board on it’s rail, as the opposite is true, what it means is that it takes fewer degrees of roll (pitch, roll, yaw) to increase the AOA, and increase lift.

I too, used to think that concave increased the surface area, increasing both drag and lift, in effect making a narrower board wider. But then, earlier in this thread, Mike said that you have to a lot of concave in to increase the surface area even 1%. I didn’t belive him at first, so I did a little math calculation. If you consider the trasverse plane and simplify the concave as an isosceles triangle (I don’t want to think about calculus) where the height of the triangle is the depth of the concave and the base of the triangle is the width of the board, and add up the lengths of the (non base) sides, you will see that he is right.

For example, take a 20" width, and an 1/8" concave depth, you can calculate that the sum of the sides of the non-base isosceles triangle is a mere 20.00156243896961.

Not very significant if you ask me. Granted, it may become more significant if you extrapolate this data along the entire area of the boards planing surface, but that math is way above my pay grade.

Sorry it took me a while to get back, I’ve been over on ‘‘Industry Talk’’ having a discussion about the lack of labelling on Chinese boards.

obproud did a damn good job in my absence. You’ve got it in your ‘‘hard turn’’ scenario, but IMO that effect is in play to some degree almost all the time, because we’re almost always on a rail to some degree (unless you’re straight-off-adolph).

Should also add that I’m digesting kc’s conceptualization. His drawing 3, though the angle is exagerrated, shows what’s going on.

What this doesn’t mean is that concave makes it easier to put a board on it’s rail, as the opposite is true, what it means is that it takes fewer degrees of roll (pitch, roll, yaw) to increase the AOA, and increase lift.

BINGO! AND, when active shortboarders release the rail, the extra bottom forces lift the rail out more quickly, giving a more DYNAMIC sensation (lift) on each side of the board, the wave side being more dynamic than the beach side. Is as if each side of the board is spring loaded. IMO, its the rails release and the dynamics involved that is probably being felt as ‘lift’. Good stuff. Can also be had with good fin setups, btw.

Sincerely, Straight-off Adolf

Yep… did my own calculations (with the help of a math teacher here in my school) and it turns out the difference in surface area is insignificant - about .04% increase in total area of the bottom of a single concave, 6’0x11x20x15, with the concave starting at 12" and fading out behind the back fins, deepest point 3/16 located half way between the wide point (a few inches back from center) and the leading edge of the front fins.

Now I’m pretty convinced that the increased wetted area of a concave is insignificant when it comes to increasing drag. The SHAPE of the bottom and how it (1) captures more flow and allows less water to slip off the rail, and (2) drives the rail deeper into the water on turns, matter most. These effects explain the increased lift (flow capture) and control (rail presentation), while adding an insignificant amount of form/surface drag.

Some fun…

I agree… but you ride a bonzer, right?

You may not ride Eaton’s creation the Zinger (check out the picture of a Zinger at http://www.eatonsurf.com/Bonzer.htm ) or anything like it… but trust me ‘there be drag here’ of all sorts, at least when it gets as funky as Eaton’s take.

… but your right about the kind of concaves that are likely being discussed here… I hope?

kc

… the following is Eaton’s explanation of what the mix of concaves and convexes might be doing. It’s taken from his site, see the link above, which also offers various pictures of the board. I not sure I’d would have went with “Punch!” to describe what might be going on after the ‘low pressure’ region… but it might describe what is happening prior to it… but opinions differ?

Dave, I hope you know that I in no way, shape, form or fashion meant to refer to you as a ‘‘straight-off-adolf’’. You probably surf better than me.

Since we’ve made this into an all-purpose concave thread, here’s another instance where concave helps.

All planing craft have a transition from non-planing to planing as they accelerate. For surfing this is the act of ‘‘catching’’ the wave. In the non-planing state, the point where the object meets the water pushes a bow wave of broken water (soup in our liingo). At some point the object rides up over it’s own bow wave and transitions to planing, where the primary lift occurs from dynamics, rather than the static bouyancy of the object.

The angle of the interface is very important (why lower entry rocker catches waves better), but it should be easy to see how concave forward on the board can also have a significant effect here.