Cooperfish Comet - not a Hull?

General Discussion
1

I looked in de archives and didnt’ find the answer to this: The Comet has a full outline, thin pinched rails, a flex fin (albeit it not as far up as on a ‘normal hull’, and glassed in). To me it looks like a hull, but the pics you see of peeps riding it looks more like a mini-mal. No deep-carving turns off the bottom or back into the curl. more like you see peeps trimming and doing cheaterfives.

They look like a work of art tho.

Leev - KP - Matt - other long-time hull types: what’s the deal with the Comet? How’s it different from the boards you ride?

pic from www.cooperfishsurfboards.com

2

I had a chance to do some compare/contrast a year or so with another Swaylocker (Matt Sacht) in waist to chest high Newbreak. We were the only guys out (equivalent to getting 1st point Malibu to yourself). The Cooperfish looks like a “hull” out of the water, not quite as radical as my Liddle but still, all the aspects are there minus the S-deck. It weighs about 3 or 4 times my Liddle.

The Comet wouldn’t get up on a rail worth crap. You had to stand on the tail and whip it around. It was still a whole lotta fun, just way different. Not as much drive but it had a real nice glide to it. Held a nice high line too.

I think the roundness of the outline takes some of the drive away and probably also affects the rail turn. But I think the fin type and location was probably the biggest factor that affected the rail turning thing. It had a big slabby longboard fin glassed right on the tail. It would be nice to try one with a box and flex fin. I’m also sure that the board doesn’t flex like Pointbreaker either…too much glass and resin.

KP or Matt will have to check in here but I think Cooper was an old Liddle guy back in the day. Bottom line; they look great and ride real nice but there is a mini-log feel there that you’d never find on a Liddle.

3

All surfboards are hulls

Nearly all surfboards are planing hulls.

Those eggy boards which are being called ‘displacement hulls’ here are actually planing hulls.

There is no clear definition of what a ‘displacement hull’ is once one has departed from the real meaning of the term and into the murky world of marketing terms and pseudo hydrodynamicspeak !

Got to keep you guys honest.

Cheers,

Roy

4

tell that to simmons… it’s the displacement hull that makes it different than the hull(or lack thereof) of other surfboards.

5

Didn’t we have this same conversation a couple of weeks ago?

6

I had a 7’4":

http://cooperfishsurfboards.com/gc1091.html

It was more of a mini Mello Yello Modelo. I’d say it rode more like the pre-hull transitional models from the late 1960’s. Fun to ride but needed more effort to keep it going. I liked riding it at Zuma as opposed to riding a Liddle at the 'Bu. It was glassed to be indestructible and had a flex fin but it needed to be sanded down.

7

Leev: on Liddle’s website there’s a pic of a ‘Gene Cooper’ on riding a Liddle in '85. that the cooperfish guy?

8

Gene was an old Liddle guy from way back, surfed good on them too. I have to agree with Lee on the Comet. Mr T Bloke we talked about this a few weeks ago, your right.

9 
Bloke aint go no stoke....... he just gotta be right.....makes me tired..
10

Yes, and the answer didn’t make sense then either. . . . . it seems that there is some confusion out there about what a ‘hull’ is. . . . . given that we are not allowed to use the term literally, and that it seems to refer to a ‘Liddle’ or something like that, it might be a good idea to say what you really mean by the term. . . . does ‘hull’ mean ‘roll bottom’? or ‘roll bottom with pinched rails’ ? . … . . or what? . . … or is it a an undefinable quality which only those in the know know how to describe and which can’t be reduced to the shape of the board but is rather a combination of vibe, feel, and where you live plus who you know ?

This enquiring mind wants some real answers. . . I might want to build one, and if I do, I need to know if it is possible to do so in the Southern Hemisphere, or is exclusive to North america?

Thanks in advance

Roy

BTW Did you notice that Doc posted the same opinion?. . . namely that any Naval Architect would get ticked off by the misuse of the term ‘displacement hull’ which is happening here. . . . so it’s not just me OK ?

11
Quote:

tell that to simmons… it’s the displacement hull that makes it different than the hull(or lack thereof) of other surfboards.

And what exactly is it that makes the planing hulls currently described as ‘displacement hulls’ different from other surfboards?

I notice that there was no clear answer to the question “cooperfish comet-not a hull?”. . . . like is it or isn’t it?

I’m not in contact with Simmons, so I’m asking here.

.

12

“does ‘hull’ mean ‘roll bottom’? or ‘roll bottom with pinched rails’ ? . … . . or what? . . …”

I’ve been thinking about this as well. To be defined as a “hull”. Does a board need to have the right combination of roll bottom, pinched rails, S deck, and flex fin set 9" forward from the tail with a light glass job? Or does this just define a Liddle style hull? I’ve just assumed that a hull was a rolled bottom pinched rail style of board…like the Copperfish Comet, or Mobley pintail, or a variety of Wilderness boards.

Like I said, “I’ve just assumed”, but you know where that word will get you.

It seems to me that when most people here, (Swaylocks), refer to a hull they are referring to the Transitional Displacement Hull, or Liddle style hull. Is that just a type of hull or is there only one “hull”?

Dammit Roy, I was cruising along just fine, enjoying my hulls until you brought this up! Now you’re actually making me think about what defines a hull?

My pea-brain is having trouble with this.

Somebody bring me a drink!

13

We experimented with every aspect of the design, taking each to their extreme. Lengths down to 5’5", thickness to almost zero; replicating in stand up form the spoons that Greenough rode on his knees. We tried very round bottom shapes, very thin tapered rails, very wide noses plan shapes. We moved the wide point forward and back, from a foot or more ahead of center and then slowly back depending on the length of turn desired.

The results, depending on the individual was an array of outlines that were appropriate for each at the surf spots they most frequented and their physical style of surfing.

The extreme shapes designed for the down the line surfing in California point surf, particularly Malibu were not easy to ride because the rail turning style had to be conciously developed. The natural tendency is to pivot turn off of the back foot and these boards were full rail turning machines. Stand forward, lean over and push off both feet to drive them down the line. The results and feeling of that style of surfing, for us were very rewarding and unique.

So for those twenty years the boards which I choose to call “displacement hulls”, short for “transitional volume displacement hulls”, became refined, sophisticated and very efficient in the surf they were designed to ride best…the small point surf of California. In retrospect and now I use the phrase " modified displacement" hull because the convex part of the bottom are much less severe and more user friendly than many of the boards built during that era. From the horse’s mouth; Greg Liddle, Liddlesurfboards.com

Is the stringer lower than the outside edge of the rail beneath the portion of the board where you stand/trim/turn? That is it. That is my fucking definition. Who makes “hulls”? Anyone who can design a board that turns on a rail and whose trim spot is the same as the sweet spot. Greg makes his version, Mark Andieni makes his, Anderson/Bojorquez make theirs, Skip Frye makes his, Klaus Jones, Kellogg, Gross, McTavish, Duncan, and McCoy make theirs. I don’t freaking care what they call their boards either. Nor do I lose sleep over it.

For Tom:

I will stop using the term “hull” to describe these “eggs” when everyone stops using the terms “thruster”, “fish”, “rocket fish” “stinger”, “log”, “longboard”, “funboard”, “mal”, “mini-mal”, “bonzer”, “quad”, “twinnie”, “single-fin”, “gun”, “nose rider”, “step deck”, “spoon”, “kneeboard”, “belly board”, and finally, last, but not least; “surfboard”.[/i][i]

14

Pato- don’t start thinkin’ about it too hard or you’ll end up like the rest of us hull riders-somewhat twisted! thanks for posting that Lee.when those of us here say hull, we are talking about rolled bottom to flat in the tail.to make 'em work right, as Lee described, they do need the neutral rails and s-deck,however slight the s might be…(at least for stand-up surfing).

15

Right On LeeV!

I have been enlightened…Thank You, and now… I can get some sleep. :slight_smile:

16

Greg’s web site is full of great little (Liddle?) nugs like that. Also it’s funny the way I think (feel?) he slightly changes things around once and awhile, but then again it might just be my frame of mind when I return to read something again for claification. One of my favorite quotes;

“Long turns are ideally initiated by turning forward on the board, leaning in the direction of the turn, pushing the leading rail edge into the water with both feet, banking the board over and pushing it through the turn. It is a very dynamic, accelerating and visually beautiful way of turning that must be done with mind, purpose and intent. It feel’s unbelieveable.”

17

…Im wondering if its good to use for a kid (child) …

…in less than 5 5´´ and narrow WP

18

First: How ‘bout some history. At least the history that I’m familiar with, which would be my own.

The original shapes that have the name “hulls” came from George Greenough. The original surfboard company that made them was Wilderness Surfboards in Santa Barbara CA. The label of the early Wilderness boards actually said Wilderness Surfboards Greenough designs.

As I remember the most common name used for these early boards was “eggs”. That name was also used for most boards that were short and had a round outline. Back in the day I personally was bugged by the “egg” name because it placed the Greenough boards in the same group off boards that were nowhere near foiled and shaped like the Greenough boards. So I preferred to call them “Greenough hulls” and usually do to this day.

Second: A number of guys, as mentioned, have carried the torch of this design, refining and putting their own touches to the shapes. And in the process a name has evolved for this particular foil and shape of surfboard. If it’s displacement hull, transitional volume displacement hull, modified displacement hull, Greenough hull, or just hull, it’s just a name. The name does not describe what the board is like any more than the term short board describes what a short board is like. The guys that know what the design is like and know how it differs from other boards that are termed “eggs” or “stubbies” or what ever, have gravitated to the name “hull”.

Sorry if the name bothers anybody or seems miss placed or miss leading. It is what it is. If anyone would like to know how the board design termed “hulls” are like and differ from other boards go do some research. It’s no secret with any secret society or special hemisphere.

Third: The Cooperfish Comet is not a hull. Yes, since it is a surfboard so it has a hull but, it is not the kind of foil and shape that would be called a “hull”. The explanation needs visuals. So, if you want to know the difference go get a Comet then go get one of the boards shaped by one of the guys mentioned in LeeV’s post. Compare the two to see the difference.

D.R.

19

Thanks for posting the Liddle quote Lee, quite illuminating

Now I want to see some video clips of ‘Liddle hull’ boards being surfed, can anyone help?

:slight_smile:

20

Sorry, I can’t help laughing at all this… what comes to mind is Martha Stewart not being happy until her silverware, napkins and center piece are arranged “just so.”

“Oh no - that will never do. Utensils are placed about one inch from the edge of the table, each one lining up at the base with the one next to it. Utensils on the outermost position are used first (for example, a salad fork and a soup spoon, then dinner fork and dinner knife). The blade of the knife must face toward the plate.”

“When the meal is served, in addition to the place plate at each setting there is the roll, the napkin, and the following silver: knives, to the right, never more than three, and forks to the left, also never more than three.”

IMO there have been lots of boards with round bottoms that in any sense of the word clearly should qualify as hulls. Certainly there are concave, multiple concave, vee, panel and other assorted bottom shape configurations to consider…

They are all planing hulls in the sense that at a certain speed they do in fact plane and support more weight. Don’t believe me? Try standing on one when it’s dead in the water. Any board, even a deep concave throughout, is also going to displace a certain amount of water. Look at any surfing photo ever taken. Check the board, concave or otherwise, and show me one that doesn’t allow some water to be displaced.

From a theoretical definition point of view, I’m with Roy (er… “Tom”) on this one.

For the surfing equivelants of Martha Stewart in the audience, nothing is going to qualify unless it meets their own narrowly defined personal standard of “hull.”

Roy - check this out. I believe there are several video clips that go with the article. Allaboutsurf.com - a fine surfing website! Also, I have an old Liddle that has a flattish/rounded/vee displacement/planing hull bottom and pinched rails. If you’d like, I can send more detailed specs.