Death to poopee makers

im in the process of preparing an enviromental report highlighting the differences between the construction of an array of different types of boards, in regard to there hazards , solvent release and the emissions of toxins into the atmosphere and dangers to workers , what i found out about our standard clark blank which uses toulene di-isocyanate as the main ingredient shocked me …

please read …

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Quote:

[ 3]Conventional urethane foam in surfboards is 6% solid ,uses a combination of toluene di-isocyanate and carbon dioxide , carbon dioxide has replaced some of the cfc’s used in the past, the use of TDI is mainly for its crisp white looks , but the trade off is the release of cyanide gas and carbon dioxide during expansion , not all the gas fully escapes the closed cell , which means when urethane foam is machined traces of cyanide gas are still given off .[/]

Following is some information on urethane foam and its dangers .

HAZARD DATA SHEET

URETHANE RESIN SYSTEMS

Monona Rossol, Health and Safety Officer for

United Scenic Artists, Local USA-829, IATSE

October 10, 1995

212/777-0062 or e-mail

75054.2542@compuserv. com

STRAIGHT TALK ABOUT URETHANE FOAM AND CASTING RESINS

“The resin part of a urethane product is not very hazardous. This is because it is not actually a “urethane resin.” Instead, it is any of several types of resins such as polyesters, polyethers, polyols, epoxies, and so on. These resins do not become “polyurethane” until they are reacted (cured, hardened, etc. ) with a diisocyanate. These diisocyanates are the problem.

Diisocyanate hardeners are capable of causing severe respiratory allergies and lung damage. Most notably, they cause a debilitating incurable occupational illness called “isocyanate asthma.” Sudden respiratory spasms and anaphylactic shock on exposure to diisocyanates also has resulted in death among workers using urethanes. There have been cases in which deaths occurred suddenly and without warning in people with no prior history of allergies.

To protect people from these effects, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists set and extremely restrictive workplace air quality limit (Threshold Limit Value or TLV) for diisocyanates. To see just how incredibly restrictive (low) the TLV for diisocyanate is, the table on the following page compares it with TLVs for other substances.

TLVs OF VARIOUS CHEMICAL.S COMPARED TO DIISOCYANATES

----------------------------------------------------------------

Substance Threshold Limit Values in parts per million

ethyl alcohol 1000.

rubbing alcohol 400.

mineral spirits 100.

toluene 50.

carbon tetrachloride 5.

phosgene (war gas) 0.1

methyl isocyanatel 0.02

diisocyanates** 0.005

-----------------------------------------------------------------

* This is the chemical that killed thousands of people in an accident in Bhopal, India

** The following are the diisocyanates which have been studied enough to set the 0.005 ppm TLV

-TDI (toluene diisocyanate), CAS # 584-84-9

-MDI (methylene bisphenyl isocyanate), CAS # 101-68-8

-hexamethylene diisocyanate, CAS # 82-06-0

-isophorone diisocyanate, CAS # 4098-71-9

-methylene bis(4-cyclohexylisocyanate),CAS # 5124-30-1

HOW DO I KNOW DIISOCYANATES ARE IN MY STUFF?

You can identify urethane curing agents by reading the product’s material safety data sheet (MSDS). Look for the words “diisocyanate” or “isocyanate” listed under “chemical family” or as part of a chemical name under the “hazardous ingredients” section. The Table above lists five of the names you may encounter.

Some of the MSDSs and product labels will provide stern warnings about the dangers of the diisocyanates. Others will not. The products without strong warnings usually contain one of the forty or more isocyanates for which no standards exist. This does not mean that these diisocyanates are safe. It means they have not been tested and proved toxic. It also means that the manufacturer is taking advantage of a flaw in the labeling law that allows untested chemicals to be considered “innocent.”

Yet ALL the diisocyanates are hazardous as EPA made clear in 1994

… EPA believes that it is reasonable to anticipate that all members of the diisocyanate category will exhibit chronic pulmonary toxicity …

Only one of the diisocyanates (toluene diisocyanate - TDI) has been studied for long term hazards and it has been found to cause cancer in test animals.’ The other diisocyanates have not been tested so manufacturers are not required to warn users about this possibility either. In fact, the MSDSs will probably say that OSHA, IARC, and NTP do not consider them carcinogens. It would be fairer for the manufacturer to tell you that these three agencies have never evaluated their isocyanate, and further, that the isocyanate is in the same class as a chemical that does cause cancer.

SALESPEOPLE TELL ME THAT THEIR PRODUCT IS 'DIFFERENT"

Manufacturers can change diisocyanates into unregulated chemicals by linking several of them together (prepolymerizing) or by modifying them by adding various groups of elements. These altered diisocyanates are often touted as “different” and “safe.” In some cases, these altered diisocyanate molecules are heavier so less of them get into the air where they can be breathed. However, the levels at which they are hazardous is so low that this should not be relied upon for safety.

WHAT STEPS SHOULD I TAKE WITH URETHANE PRODUCTS?

If you are considering using a resin product that might contain an isocyanate, take the following steps.

1 ) Find out if the product is a resin system consisting of two or more components. Consult product literature to determine if the product requires mixing either by hand or that mixing occurs when the product is extruded by the container.

(Single-component urethane varnishes and paints are not as hazardous and usually contain only traces of isocyanates.)

2) Look on the MSDS for the words "isocyanatell or "diisocyanate. "

3) If the product contains an iso- or diisocyanate, ignore any claims that it is “prepolymerized”, modified, or safe in any way. If you need to have the particular chemicals in your product looked up, call your Health and Safety Officer.

4) Try to find a safer substitute for the product.

5) If the product must be used, work in a local exhaust system such as a spray booth. If the exhaust system cannot provide 100 % protection, use air-supplied respiratory protection as back-up. The SCBA or airline equipment is required because there are no air-purifying respirator cartridges approved for the isocyanates.

6) Leave freshly cast or foamed objects in the exhaust system for several hours or over night until they have completely set up and have finished off-gassing before taking them into the general workspace.

7) Never burn or heat finished urethane objects until they begin to discolor, smoke, or decompose except in local exhaust ventilation. Heat releases many toxic gases and vapors including some isocyanate.”

how did you like that one ??

it just gets better …

regards

BERT[/]

It has amazed me that the surfboard industry has not been affected by this yet. A quick look at the automotive industry may enlighten the poly guys as to where the standards may be headed. With modern automotive acrylic urethanes, that contain isocyanates it is required to have expensive spray booths, and fresh air supply with positive pressure masks.

I can only imagine the cost of setting up a glass shop that is regulated to have booths and such.

Now this won’t affect the backyarders, but It became very apparent to me after the first few poopees that I didn’t like the risk, and no matter what I did I could not keep the smell from entering my house from the garage. I even taped off the door to the garage and the attic door in an attempt to limit any bad stuff. After the first epoxy, the choice was clear. Even if there were no benefits to epoxy other than the lack of smell I would be sold. Other than ding repairs I won’t use poly at my house.

I am interested to hear what your plans are for this report Bert.

I think government regulation will be yet another crippling blow to the “standard” industry…

Josh

Well, if your worried, you’d better not buy any mattresses, padded furniture, insulation, floor sealants, or paint, then.

hey keith and josh …

the information did highlight that all 40 or so isocyanates were dangerous , but it pointed to the fact that TDI toulene di-isocyanate is the most dangerous of them all , known cancer causer, and was the chemical responsible for killing 5000 people in the bhopal accident in india , and its the main ingredient in all white urethane blanks …

the report im doing is for internal use , its part of my job decription …

another interesting tid bit …

any industry that uses harmful substances and is not a staple of the economy , goverment regulators have no problems letting those industries move offshore to remove the problem …

im kinda shocked at some of the stuff im digging up …

i wondered why some industries had protection and others didnt , it comes down to the bucks and the potential negative effect on the economy …

it seems the surfboard industry is dispenable regardless of the cultural consequences …

regards

BERT

Quote:
Well, if your worried, you'd better not buy any mattresses, padded furniture, insulation, floor sealants, or paint, then.

I’m a lot more worried, in those products, about PDBEs used as flame retardants. Close relatives of PCBs, these chemicals accumulate in biological tissue and are known to affect biological function. I rank them as the most likely culprit for increased autism rates…

But let’s not get out panties in a bunch…mowing polyurethane foam is just not that high up there…certainly a LOT better than working with styrene all day…Now the blank making factories need serious control of emissions, but they have it. I guess I’m saying the blank making factories are the ones needing close supervision and tight standards, but they already have it.

The glass shops need some too…but surfers being surfers they’ll just glass someplace else and get more powerful fans.

I have seen pulmonary asthma in the surfboard industry many times. Wayne Lynch suffers as do Pete Dooley and Doug Wright in FL. Having said that I do think the incidence in the board building community is fairly low.

As for cancers, styrene seems to be the the real mixer there. There are dozens of cases within the surfboard building community and many deaths. I used to have a list.

Blakestah’s right about the urethane blank builders … Clark Foam has been hammered for years by both the EPA and OSHA because of their use of TDI. It surprises me that more urethane manufacturers haven’t followed Homeblown Foam in England with the use of MDIs instead which, according to Homeblown, has 1/2000ths the emissions of TDI blown foam and is far safer for employees and customers.

Styrene has a laundry list of neurological impairments associated with long-term use. The most compelling to me is the poor function on the digit span test. This, basically, is the ability to remember a list you were just told. For example, what fraction of the time can you remember a phone number that was told to you 15 seconds earlier? With chronic exposure to styrene, this ability gets a lot worse.

Not surprisingly, general intelligence tests, and age-related decline in cognition tests, are well predicted by digit span performance. If you do poorly on the digit span, you likely also test poorly for age-related decline and general cognition.

There are other impairments with styrene too, like poor color vision and general tension and fatigue.

The cancer risks, while I certainly believe them to be true, are minor in society compared to smoking (kills 25% before age 70) or radon exposure.

greg , methyl isocyanate (MDI) is in that list above …

the maths is there …

regards

BERT

report finnaly done …

what a brain bender …been on it for days …PHEW!!!

man is there some interesting facts in there …

building one standard polyester board releases 22 times more VOC’s and dangerous toxins into the air ,than building 1 epoxy / eps board …

i might print off the total …

Comparisons of both constructions in terms of VOC’s released …

Standard polyester board. Surfburger.

Core construction: Aprox 60grams and 200,000 times 15 grams

More harmful than cyclopentane….

Glassing ,resin use: Aprox 700 grams … 0 grams.

Graphics: Aprox 380 grams … 0 grams.

Finish coat: Aprox 237 grams… 45 grams.

Total : 1377 grams … 60 grams.

all these figures are based on stock standard information regarding solvent contents and % of emissions of the different products used in the different resin systems, paints and foam production …

o i give up …the above information wont arrange into columns , you guys will have to figure it out …

ahhhhhhh

It’s nice to hear some of my old warnings being echoed.

I bet (though I can’t prove) that some of the anger coming from the pu/pe camp is the result of neurological damage and the disability it causes resulting in reduced ability to process new information.: Cognitive malfunction.

Lashing out in anger is a symptom of overexposure and chemical toxicity.

Poly users should be advised to pay attention to their mood swings. They may be the result of chemical exposure not that they are bad people.

Howzit Mark, That’s because it causes early menopause.Aloha,Kokua

Polyester resin …Central nervious system depresent. Says right on the MSDS. Check it out. Also states that the vapor pressure is 5 verses .1 for epoxy (well for RR) Again, right on the MSDS. That’s 50 times the vapor pressure and we use 1/2 the amount of resin to produce an epoxy. Double the 50.

I wrote an article that appeared in Surfer and Longboarder back in the early 90’s after I did a similar study. I was lambasted by the surfboard industry for it.

IT AIN"T CLOSE. IT’S NEVER HAS BEEN CLOSE. It’s the reason polyester is on the EPA and OSHA chopping block and has been for over a decade. TDI is too.

Heard a great one last week. There are petitions running around the SoCal surfboard industry aimed at getting the CA legislature to stop the enforcement of new laws reducing the styrene content in polyester resins. The petition states that it would reduce the strength of the resins to such a degree that the domestic industry could no longer compete with imports…

Gee, why don’t you use better resins guys??? Not like their not available. Not like they cost anymore to use either. And then make better boards than the imports? So now we’re worried about just being as good as they are? Shouldn’t we set our sites higher than them?

Hey Kokua,

LMAO! :slight_smile:

I like your way.

And now that I think of it there actually may be some truth in that, too.

Both are chemical imbalances.

Thanks for the laugh.

Good one.

m

now that the sky is clearly falling,

I plan to make a smaller number of surfboards

that last longer ,are stronger and heavier.

Oh yes in that way

I plan to revolutionalize my quantum earth view

Two a week are far too many,maybe one every two weeks

thats 26 a year,now to make $50ooo anually that means

$2000 each …cheaper than a wrecked volvo.

…ambrose…

did simmons die of styrophoam logistix?

no matter what we owe GORDON CLARK thanks

first and I will look to him for advancements in techknowlagie

as the benchmark in floatation in the 20th century.

…ambrose…

who invented the lo co fo co?

Who’s afraid of the big bad wolf?

Seems to me that what you identify is a tempest in a teapot.

TDI, MDI and HDI are used in car paints, floor varnishes, foam rubber, circuit boards, and thousands of other applications, and have been for 50 years or more. Its not just in Clark blanks.

“Arco is building a 4-in. anhydrous ammonia line extending from an ammonia terminal on the Houston Ship Channel to the Bayer Corp. plant located in Baytown, Texas. The second line is an 18-in. anhydrous hydrogen chloride line running from the Bayer facilities to The Geon Company plant located across Galveston Bay in LaPorte. The new product lines are part of Bayer’s $280-million expansion of its MDI (diphenylmethane diisocyanate) and TDI (toulene diisocyanate) production at the Baytown facilities.”

How much TDI and MDI do you suppose Clark blanks use, compared to Bayer’s $280 million expansion (to an existing facility)?

I’m not saying to approach making surfboards without respect for your personal safety. Just that these materials are everywhere in everyday life, its a little illogical to act as though one should be scared of making surfboards out of a certain kind of foam…

Here’s what I think is a FAIR statement from messing about in boats.com:

The best all-around advice is a combination of statements from boatbuilding product literature: “None of our products is safe. They cannot be made safe. Work cleanly.” Get material safety data sheets (MSDS) when you buy boatbuilding materials. They are difficult for someone without chemical background to understand, but there is always useful information on how hazardous the materials are, how to handle them safely, what protective equipment is needed, first aid and contacts for help in an emergency situation.

That goes for epoxies, tuolulene, polys, paint, even good old wood dust.

OK I’m done. I have no vested interest here. I don’t make money off Clark blanks, poly, epoxy…

The question that concerns me is not how much does Clark use compared to Gulf, Exxon, Shell, Dupont, American Cyanamid, or ICI.

The question that concerns me is how much do I want to be exposed to?

My personal answer is zero.

Your answer may differ. But that is not my concern.

But I resent the implication that someone elses personal income may dictate my exposure level.

Quote:

I have seen pulmonary asthma in the surfboard industry many times. Wayne Lynch suffers as do Pete Dooley and Doug Wright in FL. Having said that I do think the incidence in the board building community is fairly low.

As for cancers, styrene seems to be the the real mixer there. There are dozens of cases within the surfboard building community and many deaths. I used to have a list.

Blakestah’s right about the urethane blank builders … Clark Foam has been hammered for years by both the EPA and OSHA because of their use of TDI. It surprises me that more urethane manufacturers haven’t followed Homeblown Foam in England with the use of MDIs instead which, according to Homeblown, has 1/2000ths the emissions of TDI blown foam and is far safer for employees and customers.

Greg are you saying that homeblown blanks are safer to work with it or is it a little more clomplicated? I’ve become aware of the dangers of polyester resins since joining swaylocks but until now somewhat unaware of the potential hazards involved with the foam blanks we use other than it gets everywhere.

KS.

when i step back and really look at things…traditional surfboard making materials and methods seems so antiquated and rediculous…water incompatible mat’ls, hand made laminates, hand sanding…its like stepping back in time

all very sobering.

But in the words of one organic chemistry professor,

“Never wallow in organic chemicals.”

throwing stones at PE/PU is fine, but suitable protection for any chemical is what you should be preaching.

you never know what’s gonna bit you in the ass.

…weather it’s polyester or orange juice.

regards,

-bill

" I resent the implication that someone elses personal income may dictate my exposure level. "

That is your inference, not my implication.

What I implied is that “scientific” studies are most credible when they are neither funded by, nor performed by those with vested interests.

(E.g., which do most people find more credible, a cancer study paid for by the tobacco industry, or a study funded thru a grant by the National Institute of Health?)