Deep Design: Daniel Thomson on Surfboards, Physics and Simmons

General Discussion
21

not saying he has either of these credentials but the challenge is in the difference between an engineer (real world) versus a mathematician (theory).  maybe a physical oceanographer might be better point of reference but engineers typically make things work while mathematicians dream or visualize about how things work.

if you have had formal training in either you’ll understand.

conceptionalize then,

prototype then,

test then, 

adjust then,

prototype then,

test then,

repeat until,

you settle

pretty much the cycle of making stuff…

 

aethetics are severely overated when you are concerned about performance

surfboards as art (past) versus surfbards as a functional tool of a trade (current) are in high conflict.

no breaking wave is an exact duplicate of the wave before it…

 

just my 2 cents but “Y” predicted this current design trend 30-40 years ago with Vinny Bryant 

22

A real engineer is able to turn an abstract idea into a set of specifications which transform that idea into a physical form.  Those spec’s include how to test it to verify that it performs to what the idea was about in the first place, and also the process of how to build it.  Predictable outcomes are the result.  The purpose of the math is to show the validity of the design by applying engineering principles which are rooted in various formulas and equations.  Numerical values are substituted for attributes like lift, speed, turning radius, etc, and these are the numbers tested to.  If you can’t show this technical validity,  the design is based on guesses (or devine enlightenment) and then trial and error verification.  Even if you eventually do stumble on something that works, you will not understand why or if you could improve it further.   Once you’ve been a player in the engineering field, you’ll soon realize that there’s a whole lot of stuff we can’t define with formulas and equations.   Especially when it has to do with trying to influence natural moving phenomenon like wind, waves, etc.  Kelly Johnson at the Lockheed Skunk Works knew this just as Bob Simmons and his Cal Tech crew.  However Kelly and Bob’s designs weren’t guesses.  It really doesn’t matter if you have the credentials or not, but you have to be able to show that you didn’t just guess or get lucky but really understand.   In the surf industry, it’s very common to use a lot of technical hype and BS since the audience won’t question it the same as a geek-heavy industry.  How many real design engineers (not manufacturing engineers like in China) do you think work in the surf biz?  In all of SoCal, I can count those on two fingers.     If there is really some engineering behind the design, then say what it is and why it works.  If you don’t, I’ll take it as you don’t know.  And don’t make the excuse that the info is so proprietary or confidential.

23

over tech?

Uber tech?

lauded in the surf bario as an advanced achademic from far away?

 

Taking a run at influencing ‘the california surf board design market’

has history ,Mr.Robert Young ( not father Knows best) at the world contest

started the revolutionary run on the ‘american $urfboard’ cash flow.

 

start with a dramaticly diffrent design.

(as conforming users tend to become easily identifyable from curb side)

get media exposure,run some ads,licence designs out to manufacture

and VI _OLA … pronounced in french wa laa

in the orchestra pit a big Violin

in the south a nick name for ant Violet

in spanish perhaps a life wave

the result is a turning of surfing attention to 

a tangental surfing form adaptable to 

summer waves when small clean mornings are inspirational.

Design trends are the children of summers fading into memory

when the new ‘Nuuhiwa’/(g)nat young Proves the board’s legitamacy

the tangent will become mainstream

with A new ''design parameter set in the focused lens of mass market scrutiny

the innovations and jazz riffing of mainstream shapers will disect

snd refine the design elements down to palpable brain cuisine.

The moment of decline will be heralded when someone claims

to own the ‘Nifty Flyer’ or some such moniker assigned to this

tangental design.Meanwhile back at the Rancho Th ghost of Snodgrass

will be riding COJO on a 9’6 finless with his name on deck… Go Snodgrass!

where is that picture of snodgrass?

…ambrose…

that board was finless

24

Surfer/shapers IMO , are too rare these days…They shape it , ride it  and their feet tell them how to improve it…it is still the best and shortest road to improvement…and the easiest way to debunk all the unproven and over-marketed claims , that are endless…

25

well said

 

  and from the footage I have seen of Daniel , he is a VERY talented surfer , and his boards seem to work really well for him

 

  did you see the 'surfing life' mag , the issue with the dvd , where they also did a three or so minute feature on him ?

 

the guy RIPS , no doubt , and doesn't seem to be too full of himself , from what I can tell ? refreshing .

 

 it was footage of tom curren riding some 'hockey stick fins' of mark and dan's , in the 5'5 x 19 1/4"  'lost' video , that inspired me to give making some of THEM  a go. Daniel had bigger versions on his carbon fibre fishes , in the 'Surfing Life' mag dvd I mentioned  , too .Watching his turns on them , in slow motion , in WELL overhead waves at lennox [his home break] and in victoria ?  priceless !

 

  cheers !

 

  ben

26

Any equipment under the right feet will perform. it's not the vehicle....its the driver.

 

I give you exibit A, Kelly Slater on  a door, notice how the door hole adds a nice bubbling drinking fountain touch!:

 

27

…hello Kayu and Fins, I maintain what I commented before; so yes the guy s super radical modern Surfing and in the long end he ll finish tweaking here and there and the planshape will be similar to what s a hpsb now, as the way that all those guys shaping the mini Simmons…

-so in the meantime he s growing followers to his work and in a few years he ll got a " big name", followers, customers, etc

 

-Resin head, no matter the rider, with a door you cannot ride a real wave in a better way or in a safety way like a surfboard would do

28

Doot toot toot!!!   (Horn blowing alert…)

I studied the “lord’s” planning hull writings a bit, at the university level, and the big thing I came away with was “speed.”  It wasn’t about maneuverability.

“Uncle” Dale Solomonson told me from my youth, “Surf craft design is about compromise between speed and control.”

Turns out he was right… Ha!

Plenty of science behind different aspects of surfboard hydrodynamics, but not much putting it all together.

Besides…  As some have pointed out, to a huge degree it’s all about the rider and their approach.

29

[quote="$1"]

...when I worked for Dick Brewer, he told me there are no straight lines in nature. Graceful lines always look better to the eye... [/quote]

So I'm not trying to rag on your mentor or anything, but he may want to re-think the logic behind that statement considering straight lines are actually one of the most common occourences in nature, and part of the argument for "intellegent design" (great examples would be fractals or crystalline structures)

I don't think something needs to look graceful to function gracefully. Lets look at a recent snowboarding innovation as a great example: A few years back , Mervin Manufacturing (Libtech/Smokin' Snowboards) introduced boards with "squiggly edges" (called MAGNETraction) - something pretty much all snowboarders laughed off at first. Now, just about every company is trying to copy this in some way, along with their other innovations such as reverse-camber and reverse-sidecut.

The point is, just because its "ugly" when you put it next to what you're accustomed to, doesn't mean it isnt a leap forward in functionality. I think TOMOS forward-thinking is exactly what we need now, especially considering the direction the riding of young surfers is going. With so many surfers landing backwards now, who knows how long it will be till the "norm" is a board that has no discernable nose or tail, allowing it to be ridden switch as easily as it is regular

30

This is an interesting thread. I’m torn between two ways of thought here. Yes it is cool to further surfing through technology an forward thinking, but maybe I’m just getting old and sounding a bit doughtful. I for one love new thinking and use of new materials and shapes. But when I worked for Dick Brewer, he told me there are no straight lines in nature. Graceful lines always look better to the eye. Daniels boards look a bit like wake boards to me. Remember a good surfer can make almost any board look functional. Case in point, Kelly’s shot above. (well, that’s stretching it a bit) Also a nightmare to glass. Those poor laminators. I have noticed in my 29 years of board making, that a lot of the newfangled tails with all their sharp corners were designed by guys who have very little experience glassing stuff like that. They rely on guys who do that for a living and cringe when they see them. Having spent some time as an production laminator, I would probably prefer a more graceful looking board to work on.

Unfortunately, all that is old, is new again. Meaning, ideas and board design is being constantly recycled. So to really set yourself apart, you make really different lines on your boards. Some just look hideous. Some, not so hard on the eyes.

When I worked for Gary Linden, he was shaping Cheyne Horans boards. Way different than what his competitors were riding. He finished second in the world title race that year… Some say if he had ridden a contemporary board, he might have won it all. Creative, yes. Functional ? The world will never know.

To finish my thoughts on this subject, I do try some different things board wise, straight lines, materials, theory’s, both old and new. And I surf them! So, when I talk about them, I actually know how they work and perform. At least Daniel can surf. I give him that!

Barry

31

Yep Barry, sometimes I have to admit...surfing about beauty, and sometimes we loose that thought.   Below is another ugly surfboard with hard edges.

 

32

Lol what an asinine response from Barry snyder. “hey , don’t shape that cuz, um, it’s not pleasing to my eye, it’s not found in nature,  and , uh , cuz I can’t laminate it either”. U gotta be kidding me. I ain’t no fanboy , just call it how I see it and dans boards work well. Dont care much for his ethereal nonsense however. 

33

Thanks, I’ll take that to serious thought. I don’t really take myself all that serious. Calling yourself No1 is a bit too serious for me. Narcissism runs rampant in this business. That’s why I love poking fun at some of them. HAHA. Don’t take yourself so serious, I don’t. Oh yeah, I do use my real name. Anything I say, I’ll say it to your face.

Barry

34

its all good, anyway my handle is no1 as in no one…

35

[quote="$1"]

But honestly, WTF does quantum physics have to do with board design? [/quote]

 

Obviously you've never shaped a board out of the heart of a black hole and laminated it in dark matter... figures

36

somethings look familiar some we cannot understand,but why try to take away the young mans stoke ,have we forgotten how we all got here??.constantly testing our selves and as we got older  a lot of us surf for our souls its OK to live in that imaginary world that i still rip,pipe and Tahiti,java call and i am not talking about a 3 foot days if you still get em good for you…Saw over on surfer the jealousy disguised as information on this young man the envy of those that believe he is undeserving my advice let it go and go catch a wave and be thankful that you still can ,not like so many that walk away and become miserable old farts.Tomo will evolve as a shaper has a good start and teachers and the surfing world will be better for it.  will be fun to see where the new generation takes us and no they do not owe us old guys anything especially if when they were groms you forgot to  give them a wave pay back is harsh old men!!!

37

oh way back on page one

what is the next level?

the next level is:

1.outsourcing to california,

they work for cheap

and are open to new ideas.

Oh and of course they are open

to old ideas especially when they

cherish the icons of those old ideas.

aHHHHH, then there is the song lyric

‘wish they all could be californians’

they dress like it talk like it and yet

they are from everywhere but

california,cashing in on the

association therewith.

…ambrose…

do they stop you on the street

and ask if you are bob simmons?

or joe beaugess?

or dick brewer.

when you get arrested for tresspassing

at tresstles tell them you are mike doyle.

in california people from other wolrdly locales

come and go in fashion.Some never return

to england , sud afrique,canada,china, laos,

tailand ,columbia, equadoe,france, belgium,

poland,yugoslavia ,montenegro,Italy,

there are more californians who were

born someplace else and go to their graves 

associated as consumate californio’s because

they peddled themselves as such.One more on the rise…

the next level after the next level

is outsourcing to 

surftech,

a new small country

in southeast asia,

next to china.

Where all the land is level

and build ready. Another

singapore franchised nation.

 

38

ha! (stole that expression from hui) You can only say that because you have never been in my shaping/laminating room!  Plenty of dark matter coming out of black holes at the Rat Turd Lab.  None of it fractal/crystalline, though, to the casual eye. Many would argue there is nothing of Intelligent Design coming from the Lab, either.   Mike

39

Shushka,

Can you educate me on fractal/crystalline macro structures in nature locomoting through water or air?  I can’t think of any at the moment.  I mean, I can think of plenty of examples in nature such as molecules, mineral, rocks, mountains,etc. But no living system moving through water or air.  Mike

40

not this again.  ok think of all the hi tech boats and aeroplanes with hard edges sharp corners and straight lines. they go fast and are manuverable as well.  the analogy to living things is simply flawed if progression is the goal.