I was reading through the threads and came upon this post in which the discussion goes exactly to a problem I’ve been facing: A couple of years ago I had a board that sunk under me and would’nt paddle well let alone catch waves. I ran into an old shaper friend of mine (I am not a shaper) who insisted I need more “float” in terms of thickness. I also asked for a board that I could ride either as a twin w/ a trailer (2 +1) or as a thruster. Bottom line is I ended up going from a 6’5"X20"X1.75" that wouln’t float me at all to a 6’6"X21"X3" that consistently hangs up at the top of the wave. It floats my 5’11", 185 lbs. extremely well, and surprisingly surfs really well once I pick up the wave, but I’ve had to try multitudes of fin scenarios to get it there. With the FCS vectors and hatchet or standard in larger surf it is responding better, but since the beginning I’ve not been able to catch waves, always having to take off late, especially in bigger surf…and it’s not in the arm strength or ability.
I don’t know anything about rocker or overall volume and spped in paddling but something isn’t right withthis board not being able to get a “bite” into the wave until too late. Also the fins were placed against my better judgement as a compromise between where you place them for a twin or a thruster…he split the difference and thought it’d work just fine. I’ve experimented with this board for over a year now and have all but resigned myself to needing a new one. Please help me get it right this time. I like to surf fast in the pocket but come hard off of turns and make hard, snapping or sometimes drawn out off the top…this board hangs up badly - design suggestions/dimensions that you or anyone could provide would be greatly appreciated…also if you can suggest a particular CI, Rusty, or Lost template that you feel might fit the bill that’d be great too!
Going from 1.75" to 3" is a bit “extreme” IMHO. But as far as catching waves is concerned, I would check the rocker first and/or maybe excessive fins toe-in…
But it’s for SURE your technique and skill, not the board.
I’ve had over 70, prolly double that # of boards in my surfing life, and getting hung up is a skill/technique thing, not a shape thing.
I’ve ridden chips that sunk to my armpits, to 4" thick guns that floated nose and tail out of the water, and NONE got consistently hung up taking off, unless I was lazy, scared to drop in (couldn’t commit), or just times it wrong (bad biorythum).
Sure, fat nose fun/logs in 20mph offshores would take off late, but that’s conditions, not skill/technique.
You gotta commit with more effort earlier to get in earlier.
Thick, boaty rails and too-toed-in fins are not going to let you hook the turn off the top (but still in the pocket), redirect, and drive on-rail back down to the bottom well, but as LeeD said, it can be overcome with technique and skill. But who wants to have to surf by thinking ahead when there are designs that would better compliment you and feel more like an extension of yourself than a plank upon which you are trying to balance and control?
In the end, if you have tried and tried and think the board is holding you back, dump it and get a new one… there is a big world of board designs out there suited to surfers of different skills/techniques/styles… life is too short to waste “figuring out” a board that does not compliment you and your surfing desires.
This isn’t an ego thing when I say it’s not me…I’d still entertain keeping the board if that were the case and just work on my technique. Trust me, I DO commit to taking off late…I’ve had to! Maybe I should’ve stressed that even more pronounced than the “hanging up” is that I can’t get the board to “bite” into the wave in most cases unless it’s breaking on my head! I haven’t had 70+ boards in my life, but I’ve been surfing for most of my years and this stick just seems different. As I said it’s more pronounced in larger surf, which seems strange to me…maybe just because late t/o’s are easier in smaller waves.
Any other ideas?..I love the board and wouldn’t dream of replacing it if I felt it was me…if you think it’s got to me I’ll keep listening…but what otherwise would I look for in tail design, entry/tail rocker, thickness, fin placement, etc. if I were to design a board around the surfing style I mentioned, my height and weight, and keeping it fast and loose while addressing the speed at which it’ll “grab” ahold of a wave? I noticed Lost’s website speaks of one of the allaround models as having a redesigned entry rocker to allow for max acceleration at t/o…or something like that!
No pictures handy…but maybe I can get some out if it comes to that. I do wonder about the fin placement you mentioned…I remember him “splitting the difference” as I mentioned in my post between the twin/tri placement, but don’t know if it was relative to toe-in/out, spacing between, or other.
I just reviewed your original post and realized that, although the same weight and one inch taller than you, I ride board that are easily 1/2 the volume of that board (typical shortboard dims are aggressively-foiled 6’2" x 18.75" x 2.25", as small as 5’8" x 19" x 2.25"), so I’m not sure I can relate well to what you are riding. I can already tell that what you consider floating you and what I consider floating me are very different. In fact, your original board, which you describe as not floating you worth a damn, would be more than floaty if I was on it.
I can tell you that such a thick, wide board are often draggy and reluctant to commit to the drop IMO… all that parallel rail and nose buoyancy makes the board want to run flat until the center of gravity (of you and the board) are over the hump of the swell, and sure as anything is not going to come around as hard off the top and commit back to the bottom of the wave as a “high performance” shortboard. I think you might be suffering from the “funboard blues”, when the ease of riding the board bores you, but the lack of built-in performance frustrates you. It might be time to scale down to a “big-boy thruster”?
It’s funny that this thread came up, b/c in the board I just shaped (http://www.swaylocks.com/resources/detail_page.cgi?ID=1408) I’ve noticed a similar sensation. What I’ve experienced doesn’t sound as drastic as what you are describing, but I’ve felt the same thing in this board. It’s like a reluctance to drop in, a couple of extra paddles and you’re in, but there is still that last minute drag that I haven’t felt with any of my other boards. This is my first fish so I originally wrote it off as inexperience, but then I had a friend ride it who’s been surfing 20+ years (and all kinds of boards) and he mentioned the same thing (unprompted because I hadn’t even mentioned it to him). So needless to say, I too have kind of been trolling for answers on why this board feels this way.
In this thread: http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=241261 there’s a post from Bert that mentions “…the thicker boards werent releasing water as cleanly and hanging in the lip…”, not sure if that’s related but it peaked my interest.
For future board reference, the overall balance of your present board should be considered before adjusting any single design component (like tail width for instance.) The more you know about your present board’s design, the better informed you will be to make some logical changes in the next one.
As a start, some things you might want to measure (or eyeball) and compare to other boards to see if any apply…
that’s easy…a std mid/big guy thruster will do…a CI Flyer is a good floaty reference…fin setup will make or break a board and makes all the diff in the world…cheers
If you’re going for a wave a little early and staying with the wave until it finally gets steep enough to drop in then this can feel like a late take off. If this is your problem try moving inside a little more.
Put your head down and paddle like a madman.
Lower entry rocker and a wider tail will get you planing earlier and as others have said the position of your fins can potentially be creating drag. Maybe try going with an experienced shaper and just letting them know your problems, what you’re trying to achieve with this board, your weight and ability. Know your equipment, but if you’re not dialed don’t be too persistent about things they advise against.
You may be looking for a board that catches waves easy but remember everything is a trade off. A huge example of this is big wave guns they need all that paddling power to get waves but you don’t see them doing airs!
One thing I learned with the boards I’ve made is that thick does not equal paddle nor wave-catching performance. Two things to consider: Rocker and foil. If the rocker does not fit the wave when you try to catch it, it’s going to slow you down. Flatter is faster, but only as long as it fits the wave. If it’s a hollow wave that jacks up at a certain spot, flat is not going to help you much, late drops it is regardless. If the lengthwise foil does not match with the rocker and balance of the rider on the board then it again creates problems. Some boards I’ve tried paddle the best when the nose is like 4 inches below water. On others the nose has been so high in the water, it kind of corks up when trying to catch the wave, the tail sinks and at best it ends up with a late takeoff. Foil matched with rocker and area is key to wave-catching performance.
I think thickness can mask out improper foil to a certain degree, but it really doesn’t help much.
sounds to me like your bottom edge is to soft and tucked under , carries to far back into the tail , and it has a rolled bottom blending into a deep v tail …
or your running a tail flip or some other excessive amount of rocker somewhere …
its definatly rocker related plus bottom edge related , if i saw a pic , i could tell you in an instant …
regards
BERT
sorry i havent replied to your question from a previous post and pm …
Thanks all of you for your rapid and detailed replies. In layman’s terms when you say that “flatter is faster” are we talking about lower entry rocker and low tail rocker as well?..how do I know which ones classify as low and which do not by pictures on a website? Also with the talk about thickness not really playing the major role and in fact more being detrimental in many ways to wave catching ability compared to thinner railed, I’m not sure where to start…2 1/4?; 2 1/2?; 2 /3/4?
Anyone know a template that would fit the bill for this thread’s discussion? I must say the CI Flyer and Fler II have caught my eye…with the Flyer II being a little more interesting to me as being a little more versatile in different wave conditions and still work…anyone ridden one around my size ( 5’11", 185 lbs.)and could give some feedbackand recommended dims I’d appreciate it. How about Lost or Rusty…or others. Also, any experience on how long it takes to get a CI custom built?..seems you’ve gotta go through a dealer shop rather than directly to CI.