Sorry man, didn’t mean to stuff your thread, it’s actually the only peice of information on making surf mats that I could find on the web. I really appreciate you sharing this information and encourage you to keep doing so. There are not many true hardcore mat surfers on this planet… Thank you very much and keep up the good work! Going fast is addictive!
For more detail on Ernest Smithers and some of his design thinking as recorded in his patents see - http://mypaipoboards.org/interviews/JohnRuffels/JohnRuffels_2011-0305.shtml
Paul is very prompt in his orders - here is some of Paul's story as well
http://mypaipoboards.org/interviews/PaulGross/PGross_Interview.shtml
Bob
A guy builds his own mat and shares the stoke here - on a boardbuilders forum no less and all you can do is acuse him of ripping Dale off. If you had bothered checking over on the UK matters site you will note that Dale had a degree of input into this build.
<<<< I’ve had some interesting dialogue with Mr Solomonson on this mat which
has been extremely helpful. He takes a very socratic approach. >>>
http://www.surfmat.org/t691-mat-build-2
I suggest an apology is in order Taylor, or are you here just to troll and rubbish other peeps endevours?
As it is grayman won’t ever post here again.
I don’t know for sure of course, but I really really really doubt that Taylor was dissing Grayman. This quote says it all:
"I’m sure that this guy pictured is the same Mark Thompson , who has been George Greenough’s neighbour for the past ? 30 years at least ? …no surprises , then , that he is also making mats ?! "
MT is having them mass produced in Japan, think Surftech, only Dale doesn’t get credit for it being his design or any royalties etc. And for sure, Mark is an awesome mat surfer!
Since it has already been brought up, her is a very brief history of mats, to my knowledge. I don’t really know any more than this: Mats were around for a long time. GG figured out how to surf them with very high performance including ripping the canvas off the bottoms to make them much faster and more sensitive because more pliant and thinner. Dale reverse engineered one of the ones GG was riging and started experimenting w/ subtle changes in design and making them out of a wide variety of materials, keeping detailed notes along the way. Dale and PG partnered to start 4GF and refine the design further, but it eventually turned out to just be too expensive for materials vs the market size at the time so they closed down the business. Dale continued to experiment on his own w/ materials and designs, eventually starting up his own commercial business, Neumatic Surfcraft. More recently PG relaunched 4GF w/ the orginal “finished” 4GF design, the Standard and has since added some more refined versions and variations to the line. Currently so far as I know, there are 3 people producing and selling their versions of surf mats. Dale continues to make and sell totally custom, super high performance (think Ferrari race team) mats, Paul makes a pre-set line of high performance mats, and MT has a “one design” that he has made in Japan. Each maker, of course, has his fans and detrators and there is quite a bit of politics behind the scenes…
G man - your trip is very cool. Sorry to have been abrupt - the reply was to the post with the link to the guy who Dr. Strange spelled the story out well enough, and I have only heard from Dale’s perspective. Basicly the guy said he’d pay Dale roylaties, or some money, and then didn’t.
For any who care - Dale has taken work in a local grocery, been kicked out of his shop, due to ownship chanes, and has basically never recovered finacially, nor fully healthy, since his heart attack.
My personal interest in the story is based on a 30 plus year friendship with Dale, and knowing he was making mats before I met him
Thanks for your patient understanding.
Clearly my original topic has gone by the wayside so I have nothing left to say here except this. Whichever side if the fence you sit on, you are doing the manufacturer you support no favours dragging this up again so I would urge everyone to let sleeping dogs lie. Thanks for the props in amongst it. If anyone wants to discuss my build you can catch me in www.ukmatsurfers.org
Hi Grayman -
Sorry if I followed anyone's lead with the end result of the thread being led astray. I was merely trying to answer Ben's question. I don't believe that he was purposely trying to derail your thread. I do apologize if my post was taken as an attempt to derail your thread. Stick around and witness that content on Swaylocks frequently gets led astray as various posts result in memory cells being lit up within the community.
In all fairness I followed your thread on UKMatsurfers website and was impressed with the results.
I suspect that Paul and Dale went through a similar learning curve as they developed their own methods in mat construction. I'm sure you'd agree that there is a lot more involved than what first meets the eye?
I have several mats including those built by Dale and Paul as well as a Surf-O-Plane. I don't think I'd be interested in one of MT's models after the blow-out I witnessed over on UKMatsurfers. I'll leave it at that lest I be threatened with a lawsuit(!)
The Surf-O-Plane imagery was not in jest. It was snagged directly from a website.
Here's another Surf-O-Plane image...
I also read about (and saw the pic of your hideous solution) your back problem on UKMatsurfers. I hope Paul Gross didn't see it as well!
Don't know if you've seen the kneeling chairs. They are designed to realign your spine when 'sitting.' They are not recommended for long periods of use without a break but many people have found that the kneeling chairs help.
Cheers John.
I’ve tried those chairs but they hurt my knees!
The mat was amazing! I had PG’s blessing. 
G
Hi Grayman, thanks for the PM about materials.
Any thoughts or ideas about making a hybrid mat with a semi-solid carbon nose rocker and rails ?
Surffoils, I have never attempeted to make one (huge hat tip to Grayman!) but I have ridden them quite a bit and for sure, it would not handle like a mat if it had semi rigid rails and rocker. A lot of the magic is in the mats ability to instantaneoulsy conform nearly all dimensions to the changing shapes and forces of the wave. Could be fun in on its own terms though!
Dr Strange, Ive ridden mats on and off for a few decades, I think most of us started as kids on them and I remember the speed and flow but also the lack of feel off the 'rails', If not a semi rigid perimeter, how about changing the construction so that its not a series of round longitudinal tubes and trying to get a different shape like this,,,?
And what the possibility of using glues instead of heat welding ?
Im really keen to get further into rubber.
Oooo, I like your outfit!!!
No idea about glue instead of welding but I bet Dale Solomonson has tried everything you can think of. You might try and see if you can contact him and tap the source. Really, he has written the book, except he never go it published , if you know what I mean…
As for changing to a more solid rail for different “feel”, way back when GG had Wilderness in Santa Barbara I dropped in at the shop on day, and hung out for quite awhile eying and fondling Velo and when he wasn’t in the middle of something I would ask him various questions about the design, the whys and whats and what ifs. His answer about 90% of the time was, “Everything works, it just depends on what you want to feel…” I was too dumb to take the hint right off…
One of the things I really like about mats is if you can find a suitable wave w/ no bonehead dropping in, and you squeeze the rail just right and roll your hip just right (refer to your photo above) you suddenly find yourself as if on railroad tracks carving a solid turn. Tons of rail sensation and then its gone soon as you release to plane. That only applies on the modern versions, maybe possible on the canvas versions but I never could, not like on thin, rubberized nylon!
DrS. does a good job explaining the feel.
G-man, I hope you can forgive me for the lack of clarity earlier. I looked at your construction thread, on the other site… Very cool.
I just talked to Dale - He had nothin but good things to say about you. Seeing your trials with welding reminded me of the years Dale put into his custom set up… Oh, so very custom.
Thanks for taking the time to share - again, sorry for my knee jerk reaction in relation to the Thompson site…
Those designs would be exceptionally difficult. The top one is impossible. The second one would need V set up I-Beams with two I-Beams being welded to the same point.t on the deck. It looks like you’re trying to apply hard board hydrodynamics to a mat. They don’t apply!
I don’t want to put a dampener on this but by adding hard rails you are defying the point of a mat. Also, valve placement might be tricky on that design.
On glue, gotta be hard work and not as solid as welding. Redbacks are glued!
Can I ask what you are after functionally? Why not just try a sheet of tough fabric rather than going inflateable?
TaylorO, sorry man, I didn’t mean to stir up any controversy, I only posted the Thomson site link for the videos… Grayman is right about mats being a whole different animal, to ride one, one must “unlearn” how to surf other surfcraft and kind of let the mat and the wave teach you how to flow with it. Minor adjustments in body position, head movement, rocker, pinching the rail, swim fin positioning, etc affect greatly the way it works. It is paradojic (I think that’s the word in english) that the mat can be the easiest vehicle for a beginner to ride whitewater for the first time yet the most difficult for an experienced surfer to surf. It’s a never ending learning curve yet it’s so much fun! Many of my bodyboarder friends ask me if it’s like an inflatable boogie… I tell them is more like bodysurfing on an air bubble and since one can’t contain air without a container, therefore the mat but you are really just surfing air…
i'm pretty sure pg and dale were not in business together. shoot, they never even seen each other -just a lot of conversation between two mat enthusiasts and builders over the phone. i'm pretty sure it was dale that turned GG and PG on to some "new" material he had come across back when 4th gear fist started out, with follow up calls to evaluate and get feedback on that particular material.
Yes, that’s the real scoop on the history!
i guess that those of us who have dales mats better take good care of them since it sounds like he’s not going to be making that many more any time soon. which is a real shame. Dale was real up-front with me when i called him to chat about a mat, I had a MERSA infection in my knee from a reef in panama and it didn’t look like stand up surfing was in my near future. a couple of months later i had rehab and a new mat…been good fun ever since…I’ve heard strange things about Mark T’s mats and their back story…hummmm