Well, it seems that you want to turn this into a pissing contest. My direct discussions with Phil, go back to Spring of 1960. The topics covered both his board designs, and his fin designs. What I call, to this day, ‘‘My Phil Edwards tutorial.’’ I came away with the outline of his reverse fin, and the outline of a 9’ 5’’ x 21’’ one of his boards. So, long before you advised it, I took a lesson from Phil, and moved on. By March of 1965, I was shaping next to him at Hobie’s Dana Point shop. Now, 58 years after I began building boards, based on those templates, my personal board is a 7’ 10’’ version of that board. I know my way around that design, better than anyone, with the exception of Phil himself. I’ll grant you one thing, his PE model, is not a Pig. Not in the truest sense of the design. But, it is a modified Pig. And yes, if you widen the nose greater than 16 inches, the outline takes on a very parallel appearance.
No Pissing contest. Just simply as I stated. “I don’t see it.” Maybe you could post a pencil drawing or some kind of picture that would enlighten me?? I also have a hard time understanding the fascination with Old ideas that have long been abandoned,
Rode those types of boards when I first started surfing(in Pismo without a wetsuit ‘61). They were of course heavier and the rails were awful. Tiki’s and Stingrays mostly. Real Dogs with a capital “D”. Fin on the tail lock. Straight Off. Turns were few and they were extremy unstable in the least bit of whitewater. Got off of those boards as soon as I could afford to. So did Midget.
Given that you were riding Tiki’s and Stingray’s, all your comments have merit, in that context. The ‘‘modern’’ soft low rail however,was well established by 1958. At least in La Jolla. The same is true of higher aspect ratio fins, placed more forward, than the very end of the board. My learning curve, was stimulated by the cutting edge shapers I had access to. My surfing and shaping experiences, were very different than the average surfer, of the day. Your lack of in depth experience, colors your opinion, to your detriment. You still have much to learn. You are very adamant, about how ‘‘bad’’ the Pig design is. Ambrose Bierce defined ADAMANT, in his Devil’s Dictionary, as ‘‘Wrong, at the top of ones voice.’’ It’s a perfect fit for you. You can’t help yourself, can you?
Just to be clear; Have always liked you and much respect. Just have never put much stock in your theories. Thick foils, Duo-Fins at one inch, that second fin in a single box etc. And Pigs are a dead horse IMHO. You may have come up with a lot ideas in your day but you didn’t invent the Shortboard in 1958. But it’s ok by me. Take credit where you can and leave a beautiful memory with your followers here on Sways. Very few shapers started their shaping career in 58 and even fewer shaped continuously for sixty years. continuously being the key word. As I said much respect, but just like you “I don’t believe in the Tooth Fairy”.
Well, this may sound like I’m instigating or stoking the fire between you two, but I do have some legit questions. McDing, if you say you barely can turn on a ‘Pig’ and that they’re terrible in any turbulance, why do you currently have two and at one time had a third? The differences you both see in the Pig design make sense to me, I always thought it was a ‘hips’ thing as well, but I see where Bill is coming from with his ‘modified’ pig.
Question about the hip/wide point. Is there any rule of thumb regarding how wide the wide point should be? For example, on a board with the mid point at 20", do you make the wide point 10-20% wider, or is it an eyeball thing or something completely different? Also, when you’re planning out the shape, do you focus your measurements around the wide point or the center point?
Also, what is the reasoning behind modifying the ‘less hippy’ pig shape? Other than D fins, what fin options work well with a pig?
There are some cool insights into the world of Pigs on the Surf A Pig website. Some very notable surboard builders chime in on the design and what constitutes a true pig. Modified pigs are not adressed on the sight as far as i can tell.
Let’s take a look at what you’ve said here. Like me? Respect me? Like you’ve said, I don’t see it. THICK FOILS ? Not my idea/theory, though I embraced it. Who could advance such a silly idea, eh? Oh, that would be Mr, Phil Edwards. Revealed to me during my ‘‘tutorial discussion’’ in 1960. So, you revere and collect Phils boards, but denegrate one of his core principles. Interesting. Duo-Fins? That’s Neil Purchase Jr’s configuration. ‘’…at one inch?‘’ One more thing, My fins are separated by two inches, not one inch. Another case of you getting it all wrong. I’ve NEVER claimed to ‘‘invent’’ the shortboard. That distinction possibly belongs to Bob Simmons, rumored to have made several 6 foot long boards. I believe that the ‘‘inventor’’ of the shortboard, in the modern era,(post 1960) was a fellow named Jim Foley, in Santa Cruz. In 1965/66 he was riding a 7 foot board, when everyone else was on 10 footers. Being wrong out loud, seems to be your only strong suit. Understanding surfboard design? Not so much.
My reference was to the board in the pic. Fat U shaped rails and fins on the tailblock were as I stated. Unstable and did not turn well. Reread the post. The only thing that makes a modern version any better is the foam and about 20 Ibs of weight reduction. Obviously a lighter version with less swing weight (as Yater called it) might be swung around a little better. The D fin on the tailblock is the major drawback. And yes Guys like Joel Tudor can ride any piece of shit and make it look good. Your the expert though certainly not me.
Funny I never see any of your designs around anywhere and only heard feedback from one shaper about your two fins at center. Wasn’t positive feedback either. Only time I’ve seen anything in public that you shaped is at the Board Show with you standing there by it explaining to every passerby how cool it is. As I said I don’t dig your designs. You’re ok tho as dinosaurs go. Oh and I don’t collect Phil’s boards. I ride them from time to time. They are a little limited in their performance capabilities and I am not always into surfing in the style that is best suited to Phil’s shape. I tend to prefer boards with hips, but definitely not”pigs”.
Thanks, I took a look at the site and saw lots of pigs with lots of D fins. I didn’t see any insight into the shape however, unless you mean the podcasts, which I only listened to 1 so far.
(1) Nope, never said it was cool. However, I did answer questions about the theory, and the performance. And then, only to those who asked. I wasn’t selling anything. It was Bird’s new Gun, and he asked me to sit the booth, and respond to any questions.
(2) Hmmmm. ‘‘Limited in performance.’’ ‘‘Not always into surfing in the style best suited to Phil’s shape.’’ Let me tell you about Phil’s style, on his boards. I’ve been in the lineup with most of the major international, Hawaiian, and West Coast surfing notables. I’m not an easy guy to impress. But, Phil Edwards is the ONLY surfer that I’ve ever gotten out of the water to watch. He was performing at such an astounding level. I suspect you are the one limited in performance, not the board design.
Facts are a real stranger to you, aren’t they?
You’re embareassing yourself. Show a little dignity. Phil had a great style. Having never seen him Surf in person(I’d have to be at least old as you are to have done that) ; I can only go by film that I have seen. Surfing Hollow Days for instance. I have never seen any footage of Phil riding his own model. I may have seen a clip of him riding a three stringered board in Hawaii. Can’t recall for certain. I would say that he didn’t’ ride His own model the way he would have “Baby”. But I acquiesce to your greatness and knowledge.
Maybe if you were still a “Tychoon” mortgage broker and had survived the crash; you could pay off Scott Bass and get your due respect by having a shape off at the Board Show in your honor.
As you should.
“Offer In Compromise”—- when you’re ready to shape these Jimmy Deans, got buyers for them etc. Let’s document the Shaping Process. I know a Videotographer that has shot YouTube and Vimeo for a couple of other we’ll known Shapers. I think he would jump at the chance to Video a Legend. I’ll find out what he charges for a day’s shoot and pay for it myself. We could set it up and do it at Bird’s Shed. I’m assuming he still has his rental Shaping Bay at his Quonset Hut?? I’m sure we could all learn a thing or two and also have video for Posterity. Good opportunity for you to expound.
Hey Monkstar1. The site was changed and I did not notice it until now. If you go the the blog and scroll all the way to the bottom of the page look for a title that says …og surfapig… click where it says “click here” Once you click on that it will take you to the old site. Once you are on the old site with the black background, you can click on Pig Discussions which has interviews and other info that Mike Black has had with notable shapers about the design.
Two things. 1) I am assuming 20” to mean a 20” width?? I’m thinking you misspoke. A 20” mid-point would mean you board is 40” in length?
2) I am 80-90% done with the planer by the time I cut out the plan shape. My reference is based on thickness and over-all flow of deck and bottom contours.
3) I do not currently have two pigs with fins on the tail block. I have two Phil Edwards Models one from the late 60’s and one from the mid 90’s. I posted pics of both and even to the untrained eye it is obvious that neither are Pigs and neither have the fins installed on the tail-block. I have ridden the 90’s era board extensively in both Calif and Hawaii. Love that board and the way it rides. A lot of fun memories on that board at places like Mala, Honolulu Bay, Cojo and many other places inside the Ranch. Don’t ride it much these days as I prefer my own hand shaped boards. Differant boards ride differently; that is just a fact. It’s all in what you prefer. I myself often shape boards with hips and prefer some curve in my outlines, but curve in an outline does not make an old style Pig in the Classic Traditional sense.
[Quote]DETOUR--------> Before I go down the Pig road, I’m going to build a 5’ 8’’ BroomTail Fish, for my nephew. This board will be similar, and smaller than the one I built for Rooster. Tomorrow, Aug. 18th, I’ll have a ‘‘counciling session’’ with my nephew, which will determine the direction that the details of the shaping will take.
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Curious to know how the pre-op counseling session went, and hear about the board that will come out of it.
It went well. The board is being glassed, as I type this. I’ll probably get the call to rout the fin boxes in, tomorrow. The fins (my design) are being custom foiled at FINS UNLIMITED, and will be finished in about another week. Probably about the time the board is finished. The fins will have a Matte finish, to which I will add an additional texture finish, to enhance thier hydrodynamic performance. The nephew, at this point in his surfing, is highly focused on board speed. So, he’ll get his money’s worth, with this board.