Bill Barnfield-
We’re dying to read your insights on the closure of Clark Foam (and after-effects), PU/polyester resin vs. EPS/epoxy resin, the future of mainstram surfboard manufacturing, etc.
I’m also wondering if he was the person mentioned in another post that received a “whole container” of blanks for himself. If so, while not his fault, I can imagine why he’d want to lay low for a while. Or maybe he’s just on vacation!
Aloha Bruce
I wish I had the time to tackle this subject properly. It is much bigger then Clark Foam closing down. Clark was only one word in the whole phrase that is the “writing on the wall”.
Here are some loose thoughts to consider…
Contrary to those promoting the death of pu/pe on this forum. Pu/pe will be around for awhile.
Manufacturing, like making blanks, is stupid to still be doing in the USA.
Manufacturing, like making surfboards, is stupid to be still doing in the USA.
The work force capable of the hand skills required doesn’t exist in the USA anymore. Neither does the work ethic. Neither does the desire to do this kind of work. No glass shops exist that aren’t struggling to find enough qualified employees. And young men with talent aren’t desiring to become true surfboard craftsmen. They want to be surf celebrities, they don’t actually want to take the time to gain the skills and earn the right to celebrity via their exceptional craftsmanship.
People that are interested in making surfboards want to do so much more for reasons of self esteem and ego then they really want to do it for money. They want to be seen as cool surfboard maker dudes, they just don’t want to get their hands dirty actually doing the work!
Surfboards are now a matured product.
In other words… the worst molded board exceeds the needs of 90% of those looking to consume them. Once a product reaches this state, the remaining “real” makers of “real” products still made in traditional ways must be able to compete by making or marketing their product in a way that radically exceeds the “perception of value” currently retained by the molded and mass marketed products. If the traditional craftsmen cannot achieve this he will die. And it is VERY difficult to do on any scale that will matter.
Since the molded, mass marketed surfboards will easily appeal to 90% of those looking for a surfboard the remaining consumers left available for traditional craftsmen to sell to as customers will radically shrink. These customers will not only be small in numbers but will be highly eccentric, enthusiasts that are very difficult to please and survive on economically. Additionally, they will be very knowledgeable and capable of finding deals from all the desperate surfboard craftsmen that are trying to hold on to their livelihoods and lifestyles. Because of this, “traditional craftsman” making surfboards by hand in the USA will be hovering on the edge of economic chaos. Too big and they won’t be able to compete with mass market boards with top pros names on them. Too little and they won’t be able to compete on the unleveled playing field created by the quasi commercial backyarders.
Shipping costs and economies of scale will continue to enhance offshore production, lowering costs and making consumer direct sales possible.
Boards will eventually be available direct to the consumer from the factories in China. These boards will be state of the art Top Pro models endorsed by those pros and marketed through the manufacturers or agents (like Randy French) on their behalf.
Shapers will not get a piece of this. Famous surfers and manufacturers will bypass the Shaper/Designers. There will be no value in paying a famous Shaper a royalty when you can knock off his design and put a famous pro surfers name on the board and only pay a single cheap royalty. Cheap you say!! Of course, pros will scramble over one another to whore themselves out to the highest bidder. When the manufacturer spends tons of money on ads in Surfer Magazine he can create the perception of value for any “pro”. He will create his own heroes with ads and pay a paltry royalty per board for the “media pros” name. Eventually, even the world champion will have to settle for a cheap royalty deal. Just like shapers are starting to settle for now from Surf Tech. Heck, even Clark figured this one out and never had to pay a royalty for all the intellectual property he got from shapers via their blank plugs rockers etc.
Surf magazines will soon be inundated by mail order advertisers selling all manner of surf equipment at greatly reduced prices directly to consumers via mail order and Internet sales. Surf magazines won’t be able to resist these advertisers money and they will whore themselves out scrambling over each other to “secure” these advertising accounts.
Even though everyone knows that the existence and success of mail order surf companies will be highly destructive to the traditional model of brick and mortar retailing that we have known for the last 40 years, suppliers will whore themselves out and crawl all over one another to get their products sold through the high volume mail order, direct distribution channel.
The amount of money that will move through this new channel will bypass all those who traditionally got a piece of the pie and consciously or not spread it around in their “local scene” where it dramatically drove the cool factor associated with the surfing lifestyle.
Surfing will loose a big chunk of its esoteric flair and cool factor. People won’t find surfing necessary to their self esteem and the surfing industry as we know it will implode. I should note here that this is one of Gordon Clarks big fears all along. Once the “pixie dust” magic of being a surfer, surfboard maker, etc is gone, so will be the desire for the masses to participate. Some may see this as a very good thing…and I tend to agree with them!
Contests, local team riders, bro deals, surf heroes, surf scene, new surfwear companies, advertising in magazines, etc, etc are all things that will take a huge economic hit. It will vastly change the economic and hollywood like landscape that has energized surfing for so long.
As fast as any “new” materials, construction techniques or methods are discovered anywhere in the world, they will quickly gravitate to China or elsewhere where the economics of manufacturing is superior. No country will be able to retain exclusive rights to any material or mfg. process. Individuals may retain these rights, but they will seek the cheapest location to manufacture them and deliver them to a world market.
Styrofoam and Epoxy boards as often promoted on this forum won’t be much more than a small blip on the radar screen as the whole industry transfers offshore in mass. The few remaining hand made custom surfboards made in the USA will be an eclectic mix of various materials and techniques as craftsmen struggle to define themselves and compete against the offshore boards that will be quickly made the same way out of the same materials
Shaping machines from China will produce superior results to any current machines and will sell for less then $20k WHAT! You don’t think those Chinese students aren’t learning anything at Stanford and MIT?? You think they can’t seen the potential to sell cheap machines to all those new shapers that don’t know how to use a planer, but can use a vector drawing program?
If enough of a “non-molded” surfboard market survives it will be extremely competitive. Too competitive for most to make a living at and the lack of craftsmen will require shaping machines. Maybe ones that will be able to sand the boards too!
Molded board prices will drop below $300.00 retail. Some will be as cheap as $125.00, and will be sold at Foodland on the North Shore!
Traditional hand crafted surfboards won’t be able to compete. Some will survive but so few that it will be inconsequential. Consider guitars, bicycles, dirt motorcycles, tailors, cobblers, bakers, sign painters, etc, etc.
Giant Bicycles used to be the OEM manufacturer for Schwinn Bicycles in Taiwan. For decades, Schwinn was the biggest name in US bicycles of all time. Giant was an unknown factory in a third world hell hole.
Now Giant is among the Top 3 Bicycle brands in the USA and Schwinn after going bankrupt several times is sold in WalMart! Wake up and smell the coffee boys! Those guys know what they are doing and we are all only stepping stones on their way to economic success. Grab what you can while it is within grasp…
Hopefully that is enough to chew on for awhile!! Ha!!
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I'm also wondering if he was the person mentioned in another post that received a "whole container" of blanks for himself. If so, while not his fault, I can imagine why he'd want to lay low for a while. Or maybe he's just on vacation!
Aloha MarboutSlim
I didn’t get a whole container…but I have plenty of (Clark) blanks for now. My shaping room has a glass door and anyone can see me working and a portion of my blank supply any time they walk into my store. It is very hard for me to “lay low” in such a high visibility location such as downtown Haleiwa!
I have been off the radar for 3 reasons.
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Though I rarely get sick, I got slammed with the Flu and it took me down hard for a couple of weeks
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The Christmas rush in our store is overwhelming! Even today sales were off the charts and we are, as usual, under staffed.
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Gordon Clark is a good friend.
Though seemingly off the radar, I have recently done an interview for a major International Travel Magazine and am working with 2 differen’t writers on projects for surf magazines and am also the featured lifestyle story for a new Japanese magazine.
I wish I was on Vacation!!
I hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
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… all the desperate surfboard craftsmen that are trying to hold on to their livelihoods and lifestyles. Because of this, “traditional craftsman” making surfboards by hand in the USA will be hovering on the edge of economic chaos. …
Ouch.
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… Once the “pixie dust” magic of being a surfer, surfboard maker, etc is gone, so will be the desire for the masses to participate. Some may see this as a very good thing…and I tend to agree with them!..
I’m sure there will be another ‘Gidget’ or ‘Blue Crush’ just around the corner. (drat)
All things considered, I don’t see how all the whoring is that much different than the way it has been for a while.
Words of wisdom Bill. Thanks.
Bill, I appreciate that you have forgotten more than I know and I am not answering this to upset anyone , maybe larger companies should train youths so that the crafts ( glassing,shaping sanding and pinlining ect) are carried on.
Across the planet there is a lack of qualified tradesman/craftsmen for everything. Fitters ,electricians, mechanics ,glassers you name it.
I have a friend who is a plumber he won’t take on an apprentice as he will leave after he finishes his time, the same as the tradesman.
Don’t teach someone how to shape as they will be a competitor. I do I did.
This seems to be the mentality across the planet, and then people stand back and say the chinaman is the devil. when they have created this because of their own greed and the greed has gone to people who don’t surf cause of the market and the narrow mindedness of the individual.
When will all of this china bagging and clark foam bullshit end then we can get back to a surfboard design forum and forget all the bullshit.
Aloha Pandanus
Good comments.
Let it be known that I didn’t mean to China bash and don’t think China coming on line is a bad thing. I respect other peoples desire to improve their lives and I like the fact that things I want to buy are cheaper then ever. I love the way the free market changes people and cultures such that they learn to compete via business instead of atomic weapons or horrific subjugation and abuse of their own people.
The lack of qualified labor in the USA and across the developed world is a scary thing. Kind of like Rome in its heyday. Everyone wants the life of leisure and fame but few understand the sacrifices it takes to develop a society and culture to that point. The new additions being birthed into the culture take it all for granted. Heck, you can’t imagine how many kids come into my store with their parents to get their flat tires fixed on their bikes. These kids are so lazy they won’t even fill out the repair ticket with a name and phone number. THey make their mom do it… and I am talking about 16 year olds!!!
China and its people are hungry and they are coming on like a steamroller mowing down the US kids that can’t even fix their own flat tires. Or the parents that don’t understand why those skills are necessary. We are becoming a nation of marketers able only to create ideas and convince others that our creations are worth buying as long as they are made cheap enough overseas.
Bigger companies aren’t able to change the culture of these kids. I understand your suggestion but cultures are driven by the belief systems in the home. I have tried for years to hire people and then nurture them into great employees. The success ratio is about 1 out of 200.
You can’t legislate morality or nobility of character. People will do what they want to do and if you try to stop them they will get you back for it. That is why high culture and moral character is so important and that it be infused into children as early as possible. With it they will want to do the right thing without being forced to. Young people today are taught that “being happy” is the primary goal in life and as such very little that is required to make a great society blossoms from that misguided and self absorbed focus. Happiness is great but true success requires that one helps others achieve happiness and success first. Few understand this principle anymore or work to instill it in their children.
I bleed for your plumber friend. I have trained hundreds of people and by the time they are 80% of what I need they are 125% of what the backyard shops need and I loose them. So like your friend, I don’t train people anymore. I have an immediate opening for a skilled fiberglass guy and a sand/polish guy but they don’t exist. I have an opening for a skilled bike mechanic also…but can’t find one. The last one I negotiated his coming to work here for 3 months and when he finally got here he moved into a house on the other side of the island cause they would allow their Chihuahua. Like he was going to ride his bike 35 miles to work every day one way!! No common sense!
I don’t subscribe to the idea that this is an issue of greed nor motivated by greed. The forces are much more simple and benign then that. For example, we sell several brands of slippers in our store. The ones that have good quality and are cheaper sell the best. The manufacturers know this and they are constantly trying to find ways to be better and cheaper. The game is not one of greed, like the supplier or me are pocketing more money with each cheaper made slipper. Rather their are many competitors in the slipper market and stores in my small town of Haleiwa. Therefore, these competitive forces don’t allow me or my suppliers to get too greedy. In fact, the consumer is the primary beneficiary as the products have went up in quality and dropped in price. Have you checked out board bags lately? Same thing, quality up, price down. Those who use a business model based on greed do not survive long in a competitive market. And there are very few markets that aren’t competitive.
As you know I have avoided speaking about the Clark Foam issue. But surfboard design forum issues may be mute for many unless they move to China or just make a few boards a month in the USA. There are many parallel stories from many industries that have experienced similar outcomes. The surfboard industry isn’t exempt from these forces just because we hope really hard that it isn’t.
I was born in 1948. When I was a kid in the 50s products made in Japan were a joke! By 65 no one was laughing anymore. When I first went to Japan in 75 everyone wanted me to bring them back a stereo and camera! Cause they were the best in the world and cheap. 315 yen to the dollar! By the 80s the cheapest and best quality bicycles were being made in Japan. By the 90s they were being made in Taiwan. What took Japan 20 years, took Taiwan 10 years. And now no bikes are made in Japan and all those big name Japanese brands are simply gone… evaporated by the competitive heat from Taiwan. Now the production is all shifting to mainland China. They have done to Taiwan in 5 years what took Taiwan 10 and Japan 20! But the Taiwanese were more smart and opened their own factories in China. Unlike the Japanese and Americans who contracted with existing factories in Taiwan that eventually put them out of business.
Surfboards are little different and they are being sucked into the China vortex at incredible speed. Within a very few years the industry we have known in the USA will be radically changed. Most surfboard builders are in denial or simply oblivious to the real world of international business that is crawling up their tails!
Great thoughtful post Bill. Glad you are over the flu.
You know I hope half of what you say is true. I’ve had this long love/hate relationship with surfshops and the “surf industry”. Mainly I love surfing and surfboards and hate the rest of it. I used to buy 20 bars of wax at a time just so I could avoid surfshops for a year or 2. Now I buy it on line- never have to deal with anyone who calls me dude. I hope my boards are “blips on the radar” but I’ve made my own EPS/epoxy boards for quite a while and thanks to Swaylocks, Bert Burger, Greg Loehr, Benny, Sabs, Silly, Onelua, CMP et al. EPS/epoxy/timber boards. The best thing about it is that they’re widely available industrial materials - I don’t have to deal with surfshops at all. I do buy fin boxes and leash plugs in bulk but mainly I’m dealing with paint suppliers and boat builders - just regular people not living “the lifestyle”.
I’m mostly ambivalent about Clark closing though I do feel for the craftsmen and their families that depended on that supply. It wouldn’t bother me a bit if most of the “surf industry”, surf magazines and all the surf clothing manufacturers ceased to exist. I don’t care if pro surfing is viable employment or not. I’ve never watched an entire surf contest, though I really admire the skill. If the contest is here there must be uncrowded surf somewhere else.
I love seeing people learn to surf, just hate seeing them sucked in by marketing. It’s not easy learning to surf, it’s a thousand fall sport- and then once you get good at it you continue to fall. If you just want to wear the clothes -don’t bother. I’ve taught heaps of people the basics of surfing just like my big brother taught me. I’ve never sold a used board always give them away.
We’re having a small Summer swell here today that seems to be the remnant of a big gulf of Alaska storm. Half a world away. Pretty amazing, eh?
This is probably my longest Swaylocks post ever. Hope everyone had a great Christmas and 2006 is a fantastic year for all.
I share many of your thoughts and feelings Jong. Great Post
Mahalo Bill
A great insight, clear thinking as always and a script of the future that many understand but still refuse to accept…
It definitely will be interesting to see how it all settles out everything is a the cusp right now.
I figure inland mega-surf parks will be next to handle the lack of beaches with consistant waves for all the boards that will be made.
I presume this will be a good year for you folks up north with the wave machine turned on to “11”.
Aloha no…
and Haouli Makahiki Hou!
Although you guys do make some very valid points. From the perspective that I have, and I might be over optimistic, the state of surfing will be alot different. First off, a supierior product will always have a market. It’s hard to have a superior product when everyone is using the same materials. Like you said it’s only maybe 10 percent of the market that know the subtle differences in products. However, I don’t think the “surfer” image is dying. The growth of both the sporting good and fashion industries surrounding surfing says otherwise. I think the USA will become the epicenter of a new phase in R and D that hasn’t existed before. Manufacturing technologies will also increase, and more then likely will be used in markets struggling for an edge like the USA and Australia, before eventually going to China. I don’t think there is anything wrong with using worldly knowledge to make a more favorable business decision, such as manufacturing over seas. I jsut wish instead of China more manufacturing was done in places where there is actually a surf scene. America is hands down the place to start a business. It is very easy to stay on top of latest technology and continue to R and D. Try to start a company in china with a product that actually has to EVOLVE… Manufacturing is only one facet of a business, for everything else involved it’s hard to beat the good ole US of A. Labor here is more expensive then anywhere else in the world, and many youths may not appreciate hard work, but maybe more are more keen to what their labor is worth. Many will go on to more skilled positions that requires more education. There are still great oppurtunities for skilled craftsman, in fact, many of the craftsman I know are bookedd solid for a year and are making very decent money. These “service” industries will not go away, they have a HUGE market in America, they are essential to our everyday lives. Good craftsmanship may not be on the decline for much longer as I see it as only a trend. People will start to relaize the value of quality craftsmanship, especially as it becomes harder to find, and prices for good craftsman will increase, and then so will the value of their trade. Parents who once forced their kids into college may realize their kids are dumbasses anyway and tell them to pick up a hammer. I have worked through out my teens doing everything from carpeting, painting, roofing, renovations, tilling, ect. The last guy I worked for only 23 yet was making a good living, and that is on Long Island, where the taxes and cost of living are very high. I know a guy who does custom hardwood flooring and is a millionare several times over. The keys to starting and sustaining a surf business in the USA will change, however the industry will not implode. The way I see it, it is essential to make a cost competitive product that is hand down better and has the big names and credibility to survive. Look at Surftech, their market share is tremendous and they are still a young company. People looking for more durable, better performing boards don’t have much choice. The choices are mainly one shaper or company to another. All the big shapers aren’t even hand shaping boards, and most are machined anyway, so whats the difference? There is no evidence that would suppourt a down ward trend in surfing, and if there is, there are still the true surfers out there who live a lifestle and not through a label. There is oppurtunity, perhaps now more then ever, for quality craftsmanship and a better product to thrive. New technology is the future. It happens in every industry except for surfboards…maybe things will finally change, and shitty craftsmanship will filter it’s way out. I would never recommend a youth to start shaping for a career or glassing poly, but the oppurtunity for a true entrepenure is still there. God forbid people may be forced to think about their products…this could be horrible!! Oh yea, don’t down play the importance of soft goods as they are keeping the industry alive more then hardgoods at this point. Ask Rusty or Lost what they would do without clothing sales, look at quiksilver and volcom, i believe they both had solid quarters, even with Clark’s closing…hmm…what does that say?
Hey Bill,
I’ve been enjoying these sequence of posts a lot. I love this historical perspective of the facts. After all these tsunamilike happenings, I would like to see a future where people started to be annoyed of surfing, and the whole industry stablishment failed together. After this apocalyse, maybe a new generation could reborn this sport of the kings, and a new cycle could come with people learning again even what’s the meaning of surfing to their poor souls.
Happy New Year for all!!!
Meanwhile, I will follow mowing some more PU while they are among of us…
Surfing has always gone through highs and lows. 1959 …up … 1969 … down …1979 … up … 1989 … down … 1999 … up. We have somewhat of an historical cycle. Each time the cycle turns the sport changes, sometimes for better sometimes for the worse. The business in this cycle has moved toward offshore supply. This may or may not continue in the next cycle … seems like it should but there are never any garrantees. As our dependancy on offshore supply increases we are more and more influenced by politics and real world pressures. Loosing our manufacturing base will cost us in the long run. How much we can’t know.
I don’t tend to agree that it’s quite as bleak as Bill outlined although some of the things I’ve witnessed in the past three weeks are not helping. Perhaps I’m in denial. Interesting view none the less. Thanks Bill.
Greg and Bill,
Some very interesting posts. Recently I had a Canadian fellow give me a history lesson. It was about how the US sent Demming to Japan after WWII to teach them the principles of manufacturing efficiency. It was not until years later that the US heeded their own advice to the Japanese! He also related about the USS Yorktown, the aircraft carrier that was in every major battle in the Pacific against the Japanese. After the war it was sold as scrap to guess who (Japan). I’m sure we probably got it back in the form of Hondas, Datsuns and Toyotas.
Something I’ve noticed is that the Chinese learn quick. I have a shop full of US made surfboards with broken FCS plugs. There’s a CI glassed by Moonlight with a beautiful acid splash glass, but with the FCS install as crappy as I have ever seen. Bill answered another post by me about a CI with the fins installed pointing 2 feet or so in front of the nose. The way I look at it the fin install is as critical as anything else. I hate to say that I have not seen this lack of quality control on the boards from you know where. Greg in fact my son’s friend is riding an old fish made with RR 3/2 resin and 1.5 lbs blank while I repair the FCS’s that fell out of his Sharp Eye. Well hope everyone is having a wonderful holiday season. Got to get back to hotwiring some 1 lb eps for a Bert Burger special that’s in the works.
Dave_D
3 to 2 resin on 1.5#. That was original epoxy product. That board is over 20 years old! Someone took good care of that one.
NICE summary, Bill. Well said.
And if you need a ( winter) seasonal bike mechanic, a good one, I might have the guy for you; his winter season is real slow here. Though he does have a Labrador and he’s in his 60s. If you want, I can ask him.
Chihuahuas? Jeez…
Meanwhile, a little music for those Sinophobes: http://www.mwscomp.com/sounds/mp3/chinese.mp3
doc…
Interesting thread,
It seems the American surfboard industry would have learned the lesson offered several decades ago with your auto industry. Seems you’re all about to have it offered again. Innovate/evolve or you will die.
Mr Barnfield’s astute comments about the cycle industry are perfect & so true, having been a racer for many years I watched it happen in real-time, the gradual demise of De-Rosa and most of the other overrated, heavy, poor quality euro framemakers. The rise of groupsets that worked & lasted without continual ongoing maintence the rise of STI (and the resulting competition from Campag - yeah!) And race wheels…don’t get me started.
But, despite it all, I still ride my now almost vintage Merlins, why is that?
http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/
The future in the US lies in high-quality craftmanship.
Build your own…
“The future in the US lies in high-quality craftmanship. Build your own…”
Ha! What an oxymoronic statement! True high quality design and craftsmanship are an impossiblity for the vast majority of DIY’ers.
A few comments on Bill’s excellent post.
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Let it be known that I didn’t mean to China bash and don’t think China coming on line is a bad thing. I respect other peoples desire to improve their lives and I like the fact that things I want to buy are cheaper then ever. I love the way the free market changes people and cultures such that they learn to compete via business instead of atomic weapons or horrific subjugation and abuse of their own people.
I would like that too. But I’m not sure this is what is happening at all with the case of China. I, instead, view doing business with them as simply propping up the current exploitative economy and totalitarian political system they have. I don’t believe the average Chinese citizens are the ones making money from China’s export business and I don’t see any evidence that the last decade of us doing business with them has improved the freedom of the people there at all.
You can’t compare them to Japan since Japan was a free country before we started buying all their products.
As for liking cheaper prices, I personally believe consumers need to take into account the entire ‘price’ which includes a lot more than what is on the price tag. It includes what the long term result of giving their money to one company over another, or one country or another will be. I am not wealthy at all but I will happily pay more for items made in the USA or other 1st world countries and/or developing countries whose political systems are more free than China’s and who have more concern for the environment and their workers well being than Chinese government/companies do. Why? Because I feel my choices are “cheaper” overall if my goals are a decent world for everyone and not just a pair of sandals for my own selfish use.
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Have you checked out board bags lately? Same thing, quality up, price down. Those who use a business model based on greed do not survive long in a competitive market. And there are very few markets that aren’t competitive.
The problem is in how they are competitive these days. Lowering prices (which they have to do because of the vicious cycle they have put themselves in: they pay workers less so they can lower their price, then the workers need cheaper goods because their wages have dropped, then industry has to pay the workers even less so they can lower the prices again to the new level the workers can afford…repeat…last stop is outsourcing for even cheaper labor).
Price going down certainly doesn’t mean the business owners are cutting their own share or profits. They’d never do that. Instead, it often means the companies are cutting the labor costs - either the labor required to produce the raw materials or the labor for the finish production. They accomplish this by either lowering wages and importing workers whose lives are so desperate they will accept them, or requiring more hours for the same pay out of U.S. salaried employees (who can’t refuse because they are afraid of losing their job since we have no job security contracts for the most part these days), or by simply outsourcing raw material supply or finish production all together to other countries where the labor costs are lower for reasons including that they don’t have to spend anything on fair labor practices, workplace safety, care for the environment, and so on.