Epoxy Frustration and General Glass

So I have made about a dozen boards with RR Epoxy and am ready to give up on the epoxy thing for cosmetic reasons.

I simply cannot get a blush free board. I have tried heating up the resin in the nuke, I have tried to just let it soak in.

I have used additive F as per instructions 1cc on lam 2 cc’s on hotcoat and gloss coat. But the boards just never come out blush free. The worst part is that I have been using a lot of glass on fins and the blushing makes the wood fins look like crap.

I like the fact that resin epoxy does not give off much of an odor, and that you generally have more time to work with it, Nuke excepted, but I think that I am going to start glassing with poly.

Hope the smell doesn’t linger, hope the neighbors don’t complain.

Now on the topic of glass, what are you using for a general purpose everday board, fish. with the epoxy I was doing a 6oz bottom and double 6 oz deck. But I think that I may be better off using a 4 oz bottom and an 8 or 12 oz deck with 4oz glass. smaller weave, easier to fill?

Just venting, feel free to join in.

are you doning cheater/filler coats? not sure where to point you. i have been getting great results with no special tricks. infact i was just daydreaming today about how nice my world is becasue of rr resin… yes i’ll agree that the gloss coats don’t lay out as nice as poly but with sanding and polishing you can still get a rather nice finish…

good luck.

i would never make a surfboard again if i had to use poly…

jjp

…I dont try to enter in a discussion with Loehr again, but I see (not RR resin) these problems in places with cold, too much humidity, bad weather in gral, etc

and not in places like JJP lives…

I feel your pain, but you can do it with epoxy. What you are calling ‘blush’ is actually what I call ‘froth’. Tiny bubbles that make the resin turn milky, usually from over-working it with whatever tool you have (squeegee, brush, roller). Am I right? It looks HORRIBLE over dark colors, and wood.

Blush is usually the term for the soapy-like film that forms on top of the epoxy if it cures in cold or high humidity, and it just washes off with water and a green scrubbie, or light sanding. If this is your problem, then ignore the following:

The main froth problem is the viscosity. Thicker liquids will trap bubbles easier than thinner ones (think syrup vs water, put each in a different small bottle, shake, and watch what happens to the bubbles). There are several approaches to deal with this when using epoxy. One is heat, the other is thinning with a solvent (like Add F or Denatured Alcohol.

With the heat, you have a shorter time to make things happen. OK for a hot/gloss coat, but not when laminating. Also, I find that the recommended AddF by itself is not enough for me to get almost bubble-free hot/gloss coats (the only way to get them truly bubble-free is to apply vacuum to the mix to ‘boil’ the bubbles out before brushing, then only the brushing adds bubbles). Here’s my latest formula which works very well between 75 and 85 degrees:

Hotcoat:

measure 1.5 oz of resin per foot of board (you may be able to use less, but I like having leeway)

measure your hardener

measure 1cc of Add F per oz of resin

measure 0.5cc of Denatured Alcohol per oz of resin

Heat the resin 1-2 sec per oz in the microwave

Add hardener to warm resin, stir until it clears

Add Add F and DNA, stir until well mixed (about a minute)

Strain through paint strainer into another container

Get that stuff on the board, only cross-stroke once and walk/tip out and WALK AWAY. Every brush stroke more will just add more froth, because the warm resin begins to ‘gel’ quickly.

Example: 10 foot board:

15 oz resin

7.5 oz hardener

15 cc Add F

7.5 cc DNA

microwave 15-30 sec

For gloss:

Same as hotcoat, but with 1cc DNA per oz of resin, to make it thinner and flow better

For the example above, instead of 7.5cc DNA, you would add 15cc (the reason for this is the gloss need not be as thick as the hotcoat, and you want it to level better as well, to make wetsand and polish easier).

At 85 degrees, you need to work fast. It sets up fast enough that if you take your time brushing, you can see the brush strokes on the last side you walked out, while the first side levels well.

Once you get it right, you will know. It will flow out great, and best of all, sanding is cake. I now know why sanders can sometimes not hold hotcoaters in high regard…

I know that the thinning amounts are high, and reduce the epoxy’s physicals (strength), but the hotcoat and gloss coats do not contribute nearly as much strength as the lam does, and I only use the recommended Add F (1cc per oz of hardener) in the lam to keep the physicals strong where it is needed most.

If you are like me, though, the lams (especially laps over dark airbrush jobs on the foam) are frothy too. There are two ways to combat this: Do all artwork on top of the sanded hotcoat (can’t see the froth easily on top of a white surface), or modify your lam technique. Since heating is the only acceptable way to thin the lam (too much solvent makes the epoxy weaker), the easiest way to have thin resin and the have the time needed for a good lam (for my amateur/garage hack status) is to use a slower hardener, and wet your laps separately from the flats (do not squeegee the flats and use the frothy mess to wet your laps). The other way is to use 2 warmed resin batches, one that you spread over the flats, and while it is soaking in, another that you carefully brush onto the laps (tip from MrJ), then you squeegee out the excess. There are people (surferdave is one that comes to mind) that use rollers with good results.

To tell you the truth, I have never used poly, but the smell from boat fiberglass repair places in town (no surf shops in Lubbock) makes me never want to use it in my garage, which is only one door (with a cat door in it) and 20 feet from where I sleep.

If you have any questions about all the stuff above, let me know.

JSS

Thanks for the details on your mixing. I just switched over from Aluzine and have found the RR better because it’s less viscous. The RR wets out better with less air. With Aluzine I had to use a different technique to get away from the froth. I ruined a few good spray jobs with frothy white glass jobs.

It’s not very precise but I’ll only wet out the flat areas with what I need. I never try to squeege the extra off the flats and back into the bucket. I’ll leave just enough in the bucket to do the rails with a small hotdog roller. That way only fresh air free resin is used on the rails. The small short roller is nice because it keeps your hands away from the resin and doesn’t allow for many drips.

Hello NY_surfer ,

I feel your pain…My wife and daughter are very happy that I switched to RR Epoxy resin. I’m sure the people next door are happy too. And the people across the street who called the cops because I was sanding after 7:00 pm…

I’ve glassed 7 epoxies so far. Paint jobs are sprayed with a fade and no color on the rail. More clear on the boards than I like but working within the limits of the froth that Maxmercy is talking about. I’ve done three Epoxies with wood. Lots of extra work to get it clean. You are brave to glass on wood fins with epoxy.

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=337330;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

The board in the link is my most recent RR Epoxy.It has the tail block installed after hot coat. Do it like a repair…Cut off tail. Glue on block. Sand block to finished shape. Seal block with epoxy resin. Sand resin without going through to wood. One layer 4oz top, one layer 4 oz bottom. ( with the overlaps you get two layers on each side.) When you post your photos on Swaylocks make sure to hide all your flaws :slight_smile:

…I’m currently doing a second hot coat on my boards…Lots of extra work but it shows in the finished product. I’m going to try some of Mad Max’s hot coat methods…

What about glassing on fins with poly after hot coating with epoxy ??? Might work , I don’t know

Ray

Hi, ny surfer. Know what you talking about. I looks really bad on dark colors as mentioned.

I tried to heat the resin, less add.F more add.F etc…And then I lammed without the add.F and it comes out superclear even over dark colors. And sanding the laps isn’t really any harder than sanding laps with add.F.

So now i only use add.F for fillercoats.

Jimmy.

Thanks for the replies, will try the add f, and denatured alcohol. And the tail block looks great.

But I think that I may be switching as soon as I run out of the 7.5 gallons I bought.

Yoshio,

Your comments got me thinking. I always see some degree of clouding wehen using AddF, especially when I use DNA as well. That’s why I have to filter the mixture before brushing it on.

So, I tried the following:

  1. Put some AddF in a glass

  2. Added some DNA

I couldn’t believe my eyes. The DNA caused almost all of the solids in the AddF to precipitate out!

Take a look:

AddF only:

After adding DNA:

The precipitate:

Continued on next post…

JSS

So, I stirred it, but it didn’t clear. I heated it, still no clear. I took the DNA/AddF mix and filtered it, and I ended up with much less precipitate:

Still looks like a lot of junk, but check out the filter after I strained this small amount of AddF with some DNA:

So, essentially, my hotcoat and glosscoat ‘recipes’ above essentially do nothing but remove most of the solids out of the AddF (by precipitation and filtering the precipitate)!!!

It seems my recipes could be a whole lot better than they are, with pieces of precipitate floating around in them.

So I started a little experiment with three mixes:

  1. Straight RR Epoxy and hardener, no additives, but heated to reduce viscosity.

  2. RR Epoxy, Hardener, and AddF (hot/gloss coat amount), and also heated to match viscosity of #1.

  3. RR Epoxy, Hardener, and DNA in the same amount as the hot/gloss coat amount for AddF, heated as well to match viscosities.

I brushed all three onto a black plastic panel. We’ll see what it’s like when it cures. My garage is at 85 deg and 52% humidity.

JSS

An aside: While doing all this, I noticed that AddF will dissolve certain types of plastics, and include them into your epoxy mix. I was using the semi-clear small plastic dixie cups at first, but when I saw what was happening with the AddF, I switched to the polyethylene (I think) mixing cups I normally use (got them from an automotive paint store). The AddF didn’t noticeably affect them.

Great tips and experiments. I am in the process of doing the online research for the next projects. I am too disapointed with my results to date. And a little surprised at the quality of epoxy/tint vs the tried and true poly. I mean look at the where are your epoxy swirls thread. Leslie had a nice board but still complained about blush. I may have missed them but have yet to see the WOW board. Its almost 2008. RR and add f have been around for some time now. I hope one day swaylocks will have a recipe for epoxy to eliminate bubbles/blush ala kokoa’s recipe for a gloss. I have a feeling that you can use a lot less epoxy(on a white board) but for the colors you may need to use much more epoxy($) to eliminate bubbles.

Fascinating experiment. The Additive F, really clouds up the epoxy! And look at all the crap you had to filter out of it.

Post pics of the black board experiment when you can. I just finished the gloss coat with your instructions.

Must say, ready to go poly for the first time. I just hope the smell doesn’t linger to long.

Maxmercy,

Great info. I’m planning to do an epoxy with tints and I’ve really been worried about the bubbles and blush. Keep us posted. I’m scouring Sway’s for tips.

Actually, the DNA really clouds up the AddF (or vice versa). I believe the stuff I filtered are all the solids in the AddF (paraffin?).

The black panel is curing right now, and all I did was brush it on. I never have problems with blush, because humidity hardly ever gets far above 50% around here. Essentially, I wanted to see if any cloudiness could be seen from just AddF or just DNA. So far, doesn’t seem that way:

The ‘panel’ is from a blown out powered subwoofer. The upper left is RR/AddF, the upper right is RR only, and the two bottom areas are RR/DNA. You can see the solids in the AddF have surfaced in this pic:

versus the other panels that look like this:

The pic isn’t as nice, but basically it doesn’t have anything that rose to the surface, but it does have some dust that settled on it from being in the garage…

Since the coatings aren’t thick enough to show any opacity/cloudiness (although there wasn’t much in any of the mixes, to tell the truth), I’ll use this panel to compare how the different mixes sand when cured. I’ll give them until Monday (busy this weekend) and try sanding each…

Here’s what I think I have learned so far:

Add F essentially is there first and foremost to prevent blush, thereby eliminating a sanding step between coats. Really handy for a lam, as even if you rough up/sand a lam surface, there is plenty of surface area that the sandpaper does not touch in between the individual strands in the fiberglass (so there could be an adhesion problem if your coating blushed). The other things AddF is supposed to do is raise the barcol hardness, making the cured resin easier to sand, something I’ll test on Monday. It also reduces the viscosity of the mix, something you can do by other means.

In my opinion (so far), AddF does not add much other than viscosity manipulation and raising the barcol hardness in hot/gloss coats. The blush issue is completely taken care of because all of us sand hotcoats, and all of us have to wetsand gloss coats, even if just along the tape apron line. Viscosity can be manipulated by other means other than AddF, and barcol hardness will be put to the test next week. If I don’t see a very big difference in sanding, I may be done with AddF…I wouldn’t mind at all getting rid of the smell and plastic-dissolving ability of the xylene… That would be great.

I noticed that ResinResearch has an alcohol now in the additive section. It doesn’t say not to use it with F, though…

NYSurfer, how did your gloss coat come out? I hope you strained the mix, I’m sure you noticed the cloudiness when the DNA was added…and the large amount of junk left in the paint strainer…

JSS



Here are the pics of the board I just finished. I think it will be my last epoxy, but who knows, I must see the results of the tests that are being done, If nothing else the Additive F is about to be put away for good.

The gloss coat came out ok, but visible blush everywhere in the lam and hotcoat.

Just look at the fins, should be perfect brown, you can see the lam lines!

And of coarse after I buffed the board I saw I spot I missed, went to buff it, buff pad caught the fin, shot the board off the rack, and I have a nice fracture, or fiberglass cloth mark that looks like a spider crack, which I can’t make look new. I am going for a beer.

Thanks for the PM Max. I appreciate all your chemistry experiments. It would be nice to get Loehr involved in this. Seems if I remember correctly chemistry is a fickle thing. Your precipitate might be a result of your mixing steps. Adding DNA to the AddF prior to mixing may not be a good idea from a chemistry standpoint. Although regardless I can see the logic of your experiments. No AddF on lam coats with dark colors, AddF in sanding coats only, and no AddF in gloss coats.

I used to use Aluzine only before and out of all the kiteboards and surfboards that I’ve done, maybe 40 or so I’ve never had any bonding issues from blush. Never used AddF and never did any type of anti-blush sanding or prep.

The difference on the sanding coats with AddF and no AddF is pretty dramatic though. I’ve also been using the X55 accelerant on the sanding coats and the difference is like night and day between the RR and the Aluzine.

I’ve also had problems with S cloth with multiple layers. I won’t get full saturation. It looks like everything is completely wet out during the lam but later it will have those funny shiny spots like the pictures of NY’s fins. They aren’t dry spots but look like single areas of the weave that haven’t absorbed the resin. If you have dark colors under the glass it makes it look worse.

I’m with NY on color work and epoxy. You can spend hours creating something and then have it look like crap after glassing. Lately I just won’t do much with color. The white of the blank does a great job of hiding those funny idiosyncrasies of epoxy.

as jim the genius once said (paraphrasing)

If you want epoxy and/or EPS, great. You get white and clear and sanded.

If you want colorwork, it MUST be polyurethane foam and polyester resin. Epoxy just is not horribly conducive to color work.

Paint it white when it’s sanded.

I share your frustration.

I use uv resin and one of these off of craigslist for $75. Compact when folded up and down, stores in a corner.

I then built a ventilation box with one of these inside, also off of craigslist, he also had some metal halides and high pressure sodiums on a moving track for sale, no idea what he was doing…

Its not odorless, especially with a hot coat but its not as bad as it could be.

Beautiful board BTW…

Thanks for the props on the board.

I will have to start checking craig’s list!

I hate glassing a board, but I also love it, especially the very end when I am done.

But, after speaking with some of the local guys, it almost pays to have the boards pro glassed.

I might also try one or to more without any additives and just eat it on the sanding.