Has anyone in Australia tried Bote-cote?:
http://www.boatcraft.com.au/botecote.html
I understand it’s a fairly idiot proof epoxy for the wooden boat builder. Designed for hand layup, Modulos matched to e-glass, No amine blush, UV stable hardener - looks like it might work for surfboards? Anyone used it?
Not cheap but with benzene prices tripling in the last year, polyester resins won’t be either.
Bert, thought you might have looked at this one?
Cheers,
Pinhead
no havent tried this particular label…
there west oz outlet isnt far away , so ill grab a few liters and test it out…
most polyesters are much of a muchness, but there seems to be way more variation between good and bad epoxies…
ive used some that are unworkable , impossible , bad results …
then others that are a dream, but with the price to match…
ill get some of this stuff youve mentioned try it and give you the results ,it could take up to a month for a fair judgement…
regards
BERT
Thanks Bert,
I was going to have a crack at glassing in October - I’ll look foreward to your assessment.
G’day Pinhead and Burt,
I use this resin for making vacuum bag sailboards and have used it for a couple of mals. I love this resin it flows smoothly when laminating, reasonable priced, it will yellow but no where near as quick as say the SB112 heaps less pin holes than west systems or that K?36 (I think it was called)
Yep no blush no clogged up sandpaper, great stuff.
I get it from a guy called Barry Sorrenson 94466159(best price). It doesn’t go with polyester as a filler coat. Ive tried a few epoxies and this is the best one in WA that I’ve tried, I’d like to try this resin research stuff Is it in Oz?
as soon as i read k36 i knew you were from W.A.
the k36 was a home grown combination put together by F&R sales…
its ciba-geigy resin , L C 3600 combined with H Y 2964 hardener , they packaged it themselves and sold it under the label k36 …
i actually really liked the resin system…
did you use much of it???
if so how do you reckon it compares to the bote cote, i never liked the sb 112, to thick and goes foamy when you lam with it, also takes to long to sand…
thats where i liked the k36 , filler coated nicely, dried and was sandable within 24 hours …
k36 no longer exists coz F&R sales no longer have the ciba account…
ive been using another of charlies home grown brews and the ATL range…
regards
BERT
Hi Bert,
This forum moves really fast, found it by accident looks like theres lots of info here and friendly help. I used to work at SOS years ago!I think you sanded a few polyester sailboards for me a long time ago. I used the K36 for 2 boards about 6 litres when I couldn’t get any system 2 phase 3 resin(hmm the 2or 3 may be the other way around)Which I can’t get any more in WA. I feel the bote cote with the U.V. resistant hardner laminates well if the temp is warm these cold days(suns my only heating source) it’s quite thick and sticky and the K36 seemed to have a lot more pin holes. Sanding wise, well as I paint white over the board so I mix equal volume of q cell to the filler coat and sands great like that, when I have made a couple of clear boards due to other commitments I didn’t sand them until 3 days after filler coat. The resin seems to stay pliable for a week after laminating, but when it’s baked for a couple of hours it goes and stays solid. I’m curious to know what you think of it, as you’d use a lot of resin you could probably get it direct from over east at a cheaper price(don’t tell Barry my supplier that). Heres the web site http://www.boatcraft.com.au/
Mike
hi mike how are ya , long time…
must be 10 years hey???
i remember those sailboards , the guy who was sanding for me at the time wasnt impressed ,he always liked to get em the next day while they were still green and easy to sand…
they were like concrete , s glass as well i think???
yea ill try some of this resin ,compare quality and price and go from there…
im not building as many boards these days , so it probably wouldnt warrant getting it direct in 44s …
what are you doing these days ??? still doing the sandwich sailboards for a living??
catch up some time…
regards
BERT
hey were you working at johnny’s when i was doing o’neill ???
id love to find one of those old boards with the outline stringers , even if its just a photo…
I’m sorry I haven’t gotten anything to Oz yet. I’m reading this and feeling bad about not. Reading about issues we left behind years ago. I’ve tried to get someone interested in importing or even tolling there in Oz but the institution of polyester continues to make things impossible within this sport. It’s frustrating. Same thing with HI.
There is also a brand of epoxy called Norglass here on the east coast, its a boat company but there stuff works on surfboards also.
Josh.
Hi Bert, Have you had any experience with the epirez epoxy. I worked in a factory doing racing mals for around 18 months using this stuff and found it laminated well, i’d then give em a light sand and finish off with poly. We did use a hot room set at 28 degrees C, but i did a number of longboards in my own factory at the time without an oven and had good results.
yes greg im looking forward to getting some resin research product here! i have been using fibreglass hawaiis epoxy imported by burfords.it is very clear and is close to polyester working times, it bonds quite well wih polyester filler coats. atl also make one ive tried but it is very slow even when microwaved
Thanks Bluejuice,DD, Josh,
[=1][=Black][ 2]Greg, I was looking for something here in au that would be easy to use and wouldn’t stink up the neigbourhood like polyester would, had your resin in mind as my benchmark. I thought Bote-cote may have similar properties as it was developed for handlay up for the backyard boatbuilder - but after reading bluejuices comment[/][/][/]
[=1][=Black][ 2]“The resin seems to stay pliable for a week after laminating, but when it’s baked for a couple of hours it goes and stays solid” [/][/][/]I’m not so sure. Might use the cold weather hardener and ignore the yellowing. Will see what Bert reckons - maybe I’ll build a heatbox if the stuff looks real good.
Shame you can’t get anyone here interested in RR epoxy. I would have thought Cobra/GSI and threatened polyester resin price rises would have got people here looking at new technology.
no way pinhead,were in redneck country,down here if your seen with anything different , then the shotgun comes out…ive seen grommets intimadated just for owning the wrong brand of board, or living on the wrong side of town…
i know west oz crew who have gone over east for surftechs and cheap polys…
a lot of crew think gsi /cobra and the tougher enviro laws will just go away…
guess they will get it when its to late…
there seems to be this whole new awareness from the market , to the benefits of epoxy,
ive had mum’s , chicks , and young kids ring up , specifically asking for epoxy boards…
like they just randomly pulled your number from the yellow pages , looking for epoxy…
there must have been some mainstream media about epoxy ???
maybe its the nsp,surftechs,tufflite,bics, and so on that are doing it , more people have had firsthand experience with the durability of epoxy , so now there demanding it…
yea greg at one stage i was thinking about wholesaling , that way i could sell blanks and the sandwich know how as well ,plus i would be in a position to offer guidance to new users ,
maybe the market could be ready now???
i know it wasnt ready in the early 90s …
the guy who inspired me to move to sandwich technology ,set up a business , offering computer profiled eps blanks, sold epoxy resin and glass , and other composites…
i was his first surfboard customer plus he had a few other sailboard customers…
we were sure it was gonna be big ,one time after i had come up with a new development and had rearranged my glass and changed timber thicknesses , i showed him by putting my board on the ground deck down and starting using it like a trampoline,
he was stunned …he asked to borrow the board so he could do the rounds to all the surfboard and sailboard builders , show them what was possible with eps/epoxy sandwich composite constructions, he reckoned everyone freaked, when they watched him jump up and down on it …
hell light hell strong…
but for whatever reasons , no one saw the need to change,
i continued to be one of his only customers , and just after the mid 90s he shut up shop , disillusioned by the apathy of the industry to change …
by the time a few crew finnaly started showing interest . he wasnt there to help anymore ,and i had found a whole new supply chain…
i guess a lot of us thought it would happen quicker…
my personal opinion is , it comes back to the redneck factor…
ive had turkeys fully sledge my product , even tho they have never even seen one up close let alone ridden one , and have no comprehension of the benefits,or even the remotest understanding of the construction principals and its performance advantages,
to me that shows serious lack of intelect…
so if thats the mentality were faced with , little wonder asian popout epoxy boards are making inroads into the market place…
natural selection will eventually do its thing…
regards
BERT
Bert,
I think there is a growing interest amoungst the surfing population in altenatives to the poly standard short board of the nineties, not just in design but materials as well. you’ve got your David Rastoviches and stuff about fishes appearing in the surf mags. The rednecks are still there for sure, but there seems to be more alternative designs in the water now than ten years ago.
People like surftech and salomon are influencing consumers.
The conservatism and the poly establishment are more to do with the low margins shapers operate with, they just can’t afford to spend on R&D and marketing.
But there’s another reason why now is the best time to have a crack at introducing alternatives to boardbuilders. You are looking at it - now we’ve got Swaylocks - shapers who have had to do all this stuff on their own in the past, can use other shapers to do global testing on designs and materials for very low cost. look at what’s happening with Halcyon’s fins. We can have distributed R&D and distributed marketing. The net and Swaylocks are making resources available to the previously isolated mad genius’s like yourself, that used to be only availabe to large corporations.
The frustrating part is that the surfboard material distributors don’t want anything to do with epoxy because they don’t see the market as large enough, and the boat guys already have their epoxies and want you to buy those. Leaves us nowhere. As Bert stated, the market (consumer) is now getting ahead of the industry and the distributors are laging far behind the industry.
In FL we got bombed by the same powers that be that Bert did. This was early 80’s. We ended up going away from sandwich construction, raised the foam density so it would ride more like what people are used to, and kept the prices low so we could survive. Clyde Beatty did the same on the west coast. All the while we kept on with the resin development. Now things seem to be on the verge of change. Yet there has to be movment within the power structure before we really see this. They have to finally realize that there IS GOING TO BE CHANGE! They’ve been made this way for 50 years. We aren’t going to make boards the way they are being made for another 50 years. Count on it! Meanwhile the pent up demand for better product just keeps building. This gives me the feeling that when it goes, it will be a real Mt. St Helens blast instead of a slow change. I’m not sure that’s good for anyone but we certainly can’t control this outcome.
These are some of the things i brought up in the “resistance to change” thread.
No one wants to change…maintain status quo at all costs.
Everyone has already made up their minds…its poly or nothing.
There IS a market for more durable epoxy boards otherwise Surftec would be out of buisness.
shrug The surf industry is rather strange in that respect.
greg did you mean trying to keep the change more subtle , not a glaring construction overhaul…
maybe thats why what i was doing was difficult to except…it was to far removed from conventional construction…everyone put it in the , to hard basket…
honestly greg it was guys like you that inspired me in the first place …to familiarise myself with eps,epoxy,in 84 i sanded some epoxy boards that one of our aussie shapers brought back from the states unfinished ,he brought 3 boards back and i finished them off for him ,
unbelievable…i was looking at the future ,those boards rode like nothing else of that day…is the label ocean rythyms familiar to you???
i have no idea where in the states they came from…
so light and strong in comparison to the boards of the day…
i think ive had it hard ,but i realise youve paved some serious ground, to inspire guys like me to take the next steps…
even tho i didnt know of you personally at the time , its obvious that without the influence from your early work , my mind would never of been opened up to the posibilities…
i have to thankyou for that…
regards
BERT
its wabbit season, no , its redneck season…
the rednecks are running out of ammo…
all there arguements are slowly being eroded by facts…
Yes, we did try to build sandwich surfboards in the 80’s. We built quite a few sailboards but never got past the team guys with surfboards. It seemed no one would accept the ride or the price. Then in about 1989 we got involved with the whole Dow thing and extruded foams. That lasted about 3-4 years and the delam problem just wouldn’t go away so we started looking another way. In the early 90’s we went with a vastly improved 2# EPS with great success both from a marketing standpoint and from board quality angle as well.
Ocean Rythems was, I think, out of Clyde Beatty’s shop. He was actually the first guy to really make epoxy surfboards in the US. The guys who preceded him were building sailboards. Actually the first epoxy surfboards I ever saw were built by Gary Young in HI. That was in the 70’s and were basicly Clark foam with a West System wood core laminate. They were were quite good but never really went anywhere. Then in the late 70’s a guy named Gary Efferding started building sailboards in FL using Klegecell with a 1# EPS core. Shortly after that Clyde started bring out his stuff along with Hydrofoam for surfboards. They were just 1.5# EPS with heavy epoxy laminates.
When I came out here last year, in my mind, I was going to see if I could market epoxy to be used on urethane in order to make the steps as small as possible for an industry afraid of change. Now a year later I’m seeing the posibility of a simple way to core laminates over lightweight EPS foam. Actually I’m working on two different ways to do it. I may again be expecting the industy to move faster than it will but at this point I’m not making any more than a few boards that are just test product. Resin Research is supporting me well enough that I can just concentate on developing new product and building techniques and I don’t have the day to day production and marketing of boards to deal with. It seems that developing product and building techniques as a jumping off point for the industry is a good way to provide for change and gives the industry a chance to move forward without the intense r&d we went through. They wouldn’t do that anyway. My personal feeling is that if we don’t provide this for them there won’t be any domestic industry in a few years. That is either through a market demand for better product, and going somewhere else (Thailand) to find it, or through government intervention (1162 and MACT). The only things holding it here right now are tradition, anexpanding customer base for all surf products and the pro athletes continued embrace of standard poly boards. If any of these start to crumble, the industry is in REAL trouble. As for the weekend surfers (the guys who actually pay for their boards), they are already going a different way (Surftech). The market is, right now, strong enough for the domestic indusry to let protions of the market, like the weekenders, to go another way. But continuing to give up important portions of market share will, in the end, be the undoing of the industry without a significant change in product quality. We must meet the challenge.
well after reading the dates , i must say , ive been most fortunate to have been in the right place at the right time , to be inspired by technology leaps as they came along…
what are the chances of some of clydes early epoxy boards ending up in my sanding bay on the other side of the world , in nowhere land???
thats what they were called, ocean rythems - hydrofoam-sp115…
laminated with 2x 6oz on the bottom and 3x 6oz on top…
when i was a kid in 1979 my best friend got sponsored by windrush a sailboard company over here ,he was only 10 years old at the time…over the years i was always checking out the latest sailboard developments…
it was a guy at windrush who developed the computer profiler in the early eighties…
i guess i was fortunate to be in the right circles and apply concepts and technology from different areas and roll them into one as soon as i had the chance to do my own thing…my boss at the time encouraged me to start my own business …
he said to me " look bert, if you really want to do all this stuff and try these ideas , you gonna have to start your own business, coz i havent got time to deal with it"
making time for R&D should be a component of your business time…
how else can you keep ahead??? or even keep up???
sometimes it just takes extra effort…
while other guys were out partying ,i was doing time in R&D till the early hours of the morning…
greg i agree with you about the industry being in trouble…i dont understand why the p/u, p/e merchants just didnt embrace the changes as they happened , and rolled with them…
a handfull of barrons have virtually sunk the industry to keep a monopoly…
its 20 years on and the asians production houses are in front contruction wise,but not design wise…
the traditional surfboard leading nations can stay there , if they just except public demands for better product and learn to use a few new tools , like scales or a vacumn pump…
other wise like you say ,there may not be an industry…
what happens when the big epoxy importers start signing up some of the worlds best surfers???
i know a few surfers who are contemplating contracts right now…
what are the grommets gonna rush out and buy then???
then you will see an overnight shift…and thats gonna hurt…
i remember it was 90 maybe 91 this guy who had a major high profile board production outfit says to me “what are you wasting your time for ??just crank out normal boards and make money”
funny …hes out of business now…in an effort to chase profit board building companies stopped listening to there customers…
every order…the customer says light and strong…
theres a push at grass roots level that is swelling , but when the push comes from above and the mainstream companies start funding massive manufacturing plants devoted to epoxy boards and sign up the worlds best surfers ,where is that gonna leave the industry???
what ive just said is no joke …get ready or get going…
if i was investing money into a conventional board making program and would be relying on polyester boards for my main income , i would be thinking twice…
i personally dont have the energy or the will power to try and save the industry and do the footwork that your doing greg, which is an admirable task…
but if anyone asks i will point them in the right direction ,
regards
BERT
As for saving the industry, I’m not doing it for the industry. I think it’s an important part of the sport and we would all be diminished without it. The thought of multi national business monopolizing the board building end of things is just repulsive to me. For all the good and bad that exists here, now, within the industry the alternative is soooo much worse. I saw it in sailboards and it killed that sport to lose the foundation, which was the board builders. And your absolutely right about the pro’s going over to molded which was one of the things I was referring to above. That’s what killed the domestic builder in sailboards and I don’t think it’s long before Surftech signs an Andy Irons. Anyone who thinks that Andy or Kelly doesn’t have an impact should look at the East coast surfboard industry. When Kelly went to a west coast manufacturer it hurt us, gravely. Many of us worked very hard for many years to build both the market and an industry knowing that it was an important part of the local surf community. And look at our success! 15 men’s and women’s pro world titles since 1985 and the strongest surfing marketplace in the world! A better competetive record than anywhere else on earth. And the FL surfboard industry can take a very large piece of the credit for that. But there’s been no reward because the talent we raised went elsewhere. Is anyone missing the parallel here?
And does anyone think Cobra is going to continue to support the shapers they’ve signed? They didn’t in windsurfing. They fazed everyone out. Why shouldn’t they? There are no patents on shapes. Just make a copy and get rid of the extra burden. Make more money, which is what their all about. Wake up guys, their using you to create a business for themselves. You mean NOTHING to them.
Now surfing is much stronger than windsurfing ever was, but it would still be forever weakened by the loss of the domestic builders. My feeling is that I’m the right guy (because of my history), in the right place to make a difference. I’m also in a position to get enough out of it that I can focus my energy on it and it is doubly worthwhile. My feeling is that this is important and that the time is we have to answer the challenge is finite.