I’m considering doing an EPS and carbon board, and wondered if laying the carbon up at 45 degrees to the stringer line would increase flexibility and spring? Also would a more flexible epoxy be appropriate? I was thinking of covering the board with 6 oz carbon then 4 oz glass, with deck patch, over fairly light eps, no stringer. I suppose I would lay the 4 oz glass in line with the stringer, I believe it would still flex some but would add strength?
Also, in reference to Greg L’s informative carbon post in the archives, I wonder if it would be possible to lightly paint the carbon cloth Before Lamination with that aluminum paint, or would that retard the bond too much?
Oops, I just answered my own question about painting the carbon–I don’t think it’s good to have aluminum directly in contact with carbon for galvanic reasons…thats the problem with just blurting out that extra idea that just popped into my head, it’s usualy bunk…
You could connect a small light bulb to it!!! ha. I had a friend on the F/A-18 project and the Carbon skins over the Aluminum subframe was a big issue espcecially in the marine environment… …then again you could have one of the first boards to “corrode” to death. The 45 degree bias would be optimal from several standpoints. Greg and I talked at length about getting fabric off the roll that was super wide so this could be done. There was also discussion of tri-axial weave which would be +/- 45 and 0 degree orientation. The stuff has existed for decades in the aircraft and boat building industries. As soon as a manufacturer comes out with a light enough triaxial, the way surfboards ride will change dramatically. If you are using biaxial Carbon you must encapsulate with regular glass, say 4 ounce, and this could run lengthwise as normal. Curious where you got enough Carbon to go the 45 bias?
“Curious where you got enough Carbon to go the 45 bias?”
Er…hadn’t really crossed that bridge yet…was thinking about overlapped layups with 45 degree cuts like a deck patch or something…klunky but maybe the only way…wide roll solution equals alot of wasted expensive cloth…maybe the deck patch could come from the offcut corners…
How would the 0-45-45 triax help? you would still have fibers running the length of the board, no? wouldn’t that be just as stiff as the regular way? sounds like that would be really strong stuff, though.
I am thinking of something very similar. We have a supplier here in houston that makes EPS Cores so I save on shipping. I want to make a board that noserides well and will last a lifetime. I was thinking a 10’ EPS single stringer core with 5.8 oz carbon on top and bottom. I was thinking a single layer of carbon with one layer of 6oz glass with an epoxy resin, the stompatch would be fiberglass as well. I have some quesitons as well. Like what would you lay down first? The Glass or the Carbon Fiber? Does this sound like a strong enough board? Any problems with doing something like this that I should look out for? I paint the top and leave the weave on the bottom. This would also help with UV problems with the Epoxy. Any help would be appreciated.
Last fall I made my first board(s, 2 of 'em). They are both 9’6" noseriders, Clark foam, 6oz. one layer ‘s’ glass top and bottom with a 5oz. 3/4 Carbon deck patch using epoxy (I’ll try to get a pic on here). I’ve been using it here in central California (temp, max, in the 70’s during the day and 50 at night, water temp in the low 50’s). The carbon is under the ‘s’ glass. Total weight is 19 lbs.
Twice now I’ve left it in the sun, accidently. The carbon area heats up quickly where the ‘s’ glass area is cool. Each time, while in the heat, a small (2-5") delam developes them at night as it cools off it shrinks back down so there is no bump.
There are no pressure dings on the carbon area but on the deck area where there is only one layer of glass I have a few small ones, the next one will have two layers the full deck.
This fall I will make another board EPS/carbon (4oz. 2x top and 1x bottom)/epoxy board and will add a light color to the hot/gloss coat to help with the delam problem.
Hope my limited experience helps. Let me know how your work goes.
Sorry… more info. You asked about aligning carbon 45 degrees. My first board has carbon twill weave (fibers are already at 45 degrees) My second board is basicly the same as the first except the nose is different AND it has plain weave, fibers 0 and 90 degrees.
The first board is flexy (not to an extreme) and the second is stiff. I like the first board better. The main area that I can actually feel the flex is paddling out when going over a wave that’s just about to break and the board comes down hard on the back side of the wave… the board vibrates a little. While surfing the board seems to gently ‘bend’ (?)/twist/flex with the movement of the wave.
…wondered if laying the carbon up at 45 degrees to the stringer line would increase flexibility and spring? … wells
45 degrees works well on airplane wings, but those are engineered to flex and twist, thereby helping flight characteristics. When rigid stability is an issue, they often sandwich opposing 45 degree layers, kinda like plywood.
Carbon fibers at 45 degrees on a surfboard I think it would tend to make the board twist a little rather than flex evenly lenghtwise. I think it would be better to keep them parallel to the stringer and possibly decrease or increase the the carbon string count for desired flex if possible. Less critical on a log though. Also there are many other little tricks to engineer flex.
yeah i figured I’d want to make my log as stiff as possible. I’m not looking for a shredder, I’m looking for a noserider. And me at 220lbs and 5’8" don’t want any flex at all. I figured a full 6oz of carbon on the bottom, and one on the top with one 6oz Fiblerglass weave. All glassed with Epoxy on a EPS core with an 1/2" stringer should be fine. Thinking of a single fin setup, but my have some FCS or Future boxes glassed in just in case. I really just wish I was a bit better at glassing before trying on my board. I have total confidence in shaping it, it’s just the glassing that I worry about.
You’re probably headed in the right direction then. The other main consideration is all of the black from the carbon strings. They absorb heat, so I hope blistering or something similar is not a problem for you. Good luck with it.
You’re probably headed in the right direction then. The other main consideration is all of the black from the carbon strings. They absorb heat, so I hope blistering or something similar is not a problem for you. Good luck with it.
Ozzy
I plan on Painting the top and bottom. Basically I’m going to pinline the board with tape, spray it white, then pull the tape off. That should leave some carbon runners about 1" running down the board. Shouldn’t get any hotter then stickers. So it’s going to be a white board with a pinline 1" around the sides and down the 1/2" stringer. Then I’ve got a couple LOGO’s I’m going to print up on rice paper and put on the final stage of epoxy. It get’s hot here 80º water and 98-104 deg beach temps easily. South Texas is a WARM place to surf. Sometimes it feels like bath water. I’m going to make due with what I’ve got though and ride the mush until I can get to a coast that has some legitamate breaks. I’d love to move to San Diego, but school teachers salary isn’t cutting it these days.
Yeah, I know exact what you mean. I’ve seen the water north of you get up to 88-90 degrees. I guess painting it or pigmenting the over-lam would do what you want, but I am curious about something. Please excuse my ignorance, but I’ve never heard of engineering the flex out of a board. I mean Epoxy boards are stiff as heck to start with, little or no flex factor at all, but I’ve never heard of trying to stiffen them up even more. I would really like to hear more about of the details of the effect that you’re trying to achive.
as A kid I had an old school 60’s log. That thing was solid. I’m just looking to get that kind of ride, now that I’m 70lbs heaver. I have come to believe that for something like a noserider, you would want little flex, a solid board. I’m not looking to do snap cutbacks and lip tricks on my 10’er. I just want a Longboard that I can be sure is going to hold up well. I don’t have alot of desposable income and building a board is just about a necessity since I can’t find any board other then A Bic rental down here for a price I can afford. I have a local supplier of EPS blanks and I figure if I can get a board that will hold up to the local jetty’s, piers and the number of guys sitting in the shorebreak sideways on 8-10’ boards it will save me $$$ in the long run. The only real worries I have is damage due to getting stuck on the inside when a set rolls through, and some grom dropping in on me. I surfed for about 10 years, went on haitus becuase of college inland, not that I’m settled in my job, I’m trying to get back into the scene. Being 70lbs heavier then I was doesn’t help. I used to ride a nice twin fin that was about 5’4" now I’m on an epoxy 6’8". I miss the loose board but worry about being able to float on a smaller board. I may sell my current 6’8" epoxy and try for a smaller board once I get my Longboard finished. Galveston doesn’t have too many days over head high so a long board will work until I can get me, or build me, a short board that can float me and have some snap.
Ok. Cool. In my opinion you could just go with an extra layer or two of glass and avoid alot of potential problems with the glass. Especially with epoxy.
Bug- I feel the same way about noserider flex characteristics as you. The less flex the better. I generally just make sure there is enough wood in the board to eliminate most flex. Somewhere around 1/2" of bass usually does the trick. Along with a solid glass job, I usually use 7.5oz volan, but have recently switched to combinations of 6oz and 4oz (6-6-4 top 6-4 bott etc…) because of ease of use and price considerations. I have thought a lot about using carbon fiber to stiffen up boards, but because of (1.) it’s expensive (2.) the fact that it’s black (3.) hard to resell if I don’t like the board (4.) it has to be used with epoxy to achieve maximum benefit of it’s properties (5.) epoxy is expensive …I have ruled it out of most applications. I can easily just substitute a couple layers of 4 or 6 oz and get basically the same thing. And it’s not frigging black. Although exotic looking, usually it is in your best interest to paint whatever board that you create out of it white. But I have batted this solution around in my mind: why not lay it on the stringer before you glue the stringer in the board? So then you would have something like a carbon fiber-basswood-carbon fiber “T-band” stringer configuration. I bet that would stiffen the hell out of a board. -Carl
Carbon fibers at 45 degrees on a surfboard I think it would tend to make the board twist a little rather than flex evenly lenghtwise. I think it would be better to keep them parallel to the stringer and possibly decrease or increase the the carbon string count for desired flex if possible. Less critical on a log though. Also there are many other little tricks to engineer flex.
45 degree fibers would acutually make the board more rigid torsionally. It’s used extensivly in snowboards when torsional stiffness is what keep your edge from washing out on the ice and thus it matters a whole lot…
I'm considering doing an EPS and carbon board, and wondered if laying the carbon up at 45 degrees to the stringer line would increase flexibility and spring?
It wouldn’t do anything for spring, and it wouldn’t offer any structural support. It would break in 2 seconds. It would allow more flex however. You would never want to lay up only at 45 degrees, but also a layer at 0 and 90 degrees.
If you are worried about the board being too stiff, I would first lay up the carbon at 0 and 90, and then the glass at 45 degrees. This will give you a strong and light board that still has some flex.
www.sfoam.com Great site, I’ve got plans for a noserider that is 10’. If your interested we could work together, and maybe buy in bulk to save on epoxy and glass. After pricing everything. I think I’m just going to have to go with fiberglass and epoxy.
$92 10’ Blank
$14 Template Cut “Classic Noserider”
$20 2 extra 1/8th" Stringers for 10’ft board at 5" from stringer.
$32.66 3 Pint Kit #1, System Three Epoxy Resin & Fast Hardener
??? Microballoons
$33.50 11 yds 6oz cloth-Style 7534, 6 oz./yd.² X 30", E Glass, Warp Cloth @ $3.35/ft
I’ll probably opt to put some FCS or Future boxes on the sides, but I’m not really sure yet. There shouldn’t be any problem adding them later I don’t believe.
It wouldn’t do anything for spring, and it wouldn’t offer any structural support. It would break in 2 seconds. It would allow more flex however. You would never want to lay up only at 45 degrees, but also a layer at 0 and 90 degrees.
Are you sure about that? I’m no engineer, but I was under the impression that laying up fiber-based composites at 45 degrees was a good way to achieve flex and springback, like in fins, snowboards, and airplane wings. Is carbon really that fragile on the 45 degree bias? I’ve never seen fiberglass behave that way. Sure it won’t be AS strong, but I think the 4 oz layer of glass laid up the regular way will take care of that. Perhaps you’ve done some testing? I’d love to hear some details…
Right now I have an epoxy over styrofoam, stringerless, with three times four s-glass top and bottom, 6 oz deck patch. it’s just as light as my polyester storebought of the same size, and it’s BOMBproof. The storebought is falling apart rapidly. Problem is, the homeboard is a little stiff. I reasoned that using carbon on the 45 to replace two layers of 4 oz would make it lighter and flexier without sacrificing too much (if any) strength.
If flex is the goal, and carbon is your stiffest fiber, there shouldn’t be any carbon going the direction of desired flex. The glass fibers will flex more, so they can go 0-90. the carbon will still provide some strength, and good dent resistance and memory. The glass will provide the longitudinal fibers, and the impact resistant shell.
Anyhoo, I’m not going to draw any conclusions on a new idea without laying up a few panels and breakin 'em first. Theory and opinion make good starting points, but testing is the word. just wondered if anyone has done this…