eps dips and a glass job question

General Discussion
1

I just shaped my second board, a 2.5 lb eps longy. Its got some eps shaping dips, the stuff I would typically fill with spackle. You know, the normal stuff that eps has after shaping.

Now, if i were to not spackle it, would it form air bubles under the glass, or would it fill in with resin and just end up being a heavier board?

I like heavy, i dont like air bubbles. So if i need to spackle in the crevises in order to make it air bubble free, im doing it, but if i can just glass over it and have the little dips fill in with resin and the glass settle fine, i’d rather not spackle, even if its heavier.

so whats the verdict?

thanks everyone.

2

This depends on the geometry of the dips, if they are gradual and large the glass will probably conform and wont fill with resin beyon a normal laminate. If sharp and deep you have a better chance of filling with resin in the lam process but you will need to work resin into the area and watch that it doesnt flow out before gelling as this will leave a void.

what size are they and how deep off the intended surface are the dips?

rif.

3

Seal it with epoxy & microballoons. Best seal-to-weight ratio you’ll get.

I think you better do it… too much resin & the glass gets mushy with epoxy because unreinforced resin is flexible.

4

i told him weeks ago to seal with a mix of epoxy and glass bubbles…homeboy just don’t listen!

meh

5

haha. i just don’t know if i want to go there if spackle will do the same thing and be way easier. does it do the same thing? i read an old post and greg lohr (?) said he has done thousands with spackle and microbaloons and that the spackle works fine.

what do you think?

6

Sooner or later you just have to go for it. Make your choice. Make your own mistakes. Build your own masterpiece. Use your own skills.

All the advice in the world can’t help you now…you’re on your own …try something new or improve on an old method.

Spakle or micro…both work, both have their draw backs…

You can do it!!!

7

If you don’t seal you run the risk of the resin draining into the foam, leaving the divits void of resin - air bubbles and unbonded glass. It’s not as simple as just filling in the dimples with resin. Depending on what the temperature is doing, you could get huge bubbles from outgassing, or you could get dry weave as the foam sucks the resin like mad.

Seal the blank. If you like heavy, buy heavier cloth.

8

fill the gaps with slightly thicker microballoons/epoxy putty, peanutbutter thick, gently sand it to blend with the rest and then seal. I am proponent of sealing with epoxy but I gues you could spackle the puppy. I advise against fixing dips with spackle as the adhesion with the foam will be an issue imho.

Don’t fill gaps with resin.

-cloth will float on it causing structural issues

-resin pools may heat up

-you’ll never get an even fill so a dip will remain notwithstanding your efforts to fill

-sanding the board will be a nightmare with the dips

If the gaps are big (inch or more in length, 1/3 inch deep) you might try to fill it with a bit of foam offcut and re-shape it like a ding repair.

9

Poser516,

If this is your first time sealing a blank, spackle is more beginner friendly, in my opinion. You get a much longer working time to work on your squeegee technique when using it, and if it gets thick, you can use more water or Future to thin it, I now use Future. Let it dry completely before you sand, and especially before you laminate. Spackle also leaves a snow white surface, whiter than the foam itself almost, great for aesthetics. Go to your local hardware store/home supply, and get some Dap Fast n’ Final. Thin it some with distilled water or Future floor finish. Go to town. Sand it after it dries (you can’t smell the Future scent anymore when it dries), admire your creation without the EPS divots/dips/voids, and get to airbrushing and/or laminating.

If the spackle feels dry really quickly, beware. Remember the ability of EPS foam to take in fluid. Essentially, the water/Future is being sucked up by the blank through capillary action. You have to wait for this sucked in water to dry. How long is that? I always give it more time than I think it would take. One of the great things about using Future is that the scent it has gives you a sort of barometer on how dry it is. When I can’t smell it anymore, I give it one more day, then I laminate. A lot depends on environmental conditions.

If you know your way around a squeege, epoxy/microballoons is the way to go. It is much stronger (you can feel it if you seal a scrap piece this way vs spackle), and if you lam within 12-24 hours, best glass to foam bond you are going to get. No long wait to dry (spackle can take days to fully dry). Mix the epoxy up, add microballoons 1:1 mixed resin:microballoons ratio by volume. WEAR A PARTICULATE RESPIRATOR when working with microballons. Silicosis is not something you want to brag to your kids about having. You will not need much epoxy, just a few ounces. Add some white pigment to the mix if you care about aesthetics. The mix will feel like pancake batter, and look like marshmallow cream. Spread it on.

If you are not confident in your squeegee abilities, mix up smaller batches and do the board in sections. No problem. Epoxy is forgiving. Watch for drips and thick spots, they are hard to sand down without cutting through the seal into adjacent foam (negating the seal step) if you spot them after cure.

Both methods work well. Since you want a heavy board anyway, it will probably have plenty of cloth; if I were you, I would spackle. It looks good and works. If I want a board to look pretty, I spackle. If you want the strongest, and at the same time, lightest board you can get (best strength to weight ratio), epoxy and microballoons.

But, if you want to prove this to yourself, get your offcuts/scraps and spackle one and epoxy/micro the other. compare/contrast, laminate the pieces w/ scrap glass, break/tear the glass off the pieces after cure, see which one you like best, and let us know how it went…

Above all, RELAX. Your board will come out well.

JSS

10
Quote:

and if you lam within 12-24 hours, best glass to foam bond you are going to get. No long wait to dry (spackle can take days to fully dry). Mix the epoxy up, add microballoons 1:1 mixed resin:microballoons ratio by volume.

12-24 hours??? — how 'bout 2-3 hours!..lam right over top of the seal while it’s still tacky…works like a charm

and do you really mix 1:1??? — i go 4:1 (told by a pro)…spreads gooooood.

11

that’s 4 parts resin to 1 part microballoons soulstice?

12

I’ve never tried more epoxy in the mix. I bet it does spread better! The 1:1 gets kinda chalky at the rails if you mess with it too much, as the foam sucks the resin away from the microballons, and just leaves you with dry microballoons on the surface. I got the 1:1 ratio from the SFoam EPS shaping DVD. The guy on there has a great description and demonstration of blending rail bands and finish sanding (great process for beginners), and a great section on sealing with epoxy/microballoons. There is nothing like seeing it being done before you try it yourself. Everything else is pretty standard.

JSS

13

I’m glassing my first boards as well at the moment. Me and a friend of mine finished 3 eps blanks yesterday and today we did the microballoon thing… We mixed them 1:1 with the epoxy and applied them to the boards… It felt like it was mayonaise or something… Really easy to apply, we didn’t have any problems. We just didn’t know how thick the resin shuld be applied. We scraped of as much as possible, while not scraping into the foam. We glassed them at 3 pm in the afternoon, and I just checked (at 8 pm) and it was still a little bit tacky. Not really dry yet, didn’t look sandable… From what I’ve read, I’m supposed to wait till it’s dry, sand it a little bit with fine grit sanding paper (400+) and then go laminating… correct? How long does it usually take for the resin+microballoons to harden?

14

Americangreg,

You just want to apply it thick enough to fill in the voids caused by the tearing out of the foam beads during the rough shaping process. If you left behind runs, sags, or drips, you’ll have to wait for cure and sand. Depending on temperature, you are looking at between 8 and 16 hours. Once you are good at it, you’ll be able to scrape damn near all the mixture off, leaving just a uniform, thin film, and you won’t need to sand! Just laminate on top of it, like Soulstice says, the sooner the better if you want a chemical bond…

The rails seem to have more voids/missing beads, so I don’t scrape with too high an angle with the squeege. It takes a few to get right, so until you are good at it, I worked with small batches, separating the board into thirds. The first board I ever sealed was a 10’0", 24" wide log, and idiot me tried to do it all at once. Lots of sanding there, my friends… All kinds of nice drips, sags, runs, you name it. It is still one of the nicest looking boards I have built, I took my time to finish it:

If you look, you can see the outline on the right of the board is wavy. That is due to the drips of epoxy/microballons I tried to sand, and I got into the foam, making flat spots along the outline. Had to reseal the places I got into the foam, and the flat spots stayed there…

JSS

15

cool! good tip… I’l make sure next time i don’t get any drips so I can laminate right away!! How long does it usually take until the glass cloth+epoxy is cured and ready to sand? same time? 8-16hrs? How do you guys do that? Just flip the board over even if the epoxy in the cloth is not completely cured?

16

If you mean the sanding you have to do to the glass edge on the lap, it is typically referred to as ‘grinding the laps’. You do this so you won’t have a ridge to laminate over when you glass the other side of the board. Be careful you don’t sand through the seal on the foam here as well. If you want to be really careful, brush some epoxy on the laps and let it cure before grinding/sanding the laps. I only do this if I have graphics on the foam, to protect from sanding into them.

Yes, basically as long as it takes. If the epoxy is gumming up your sandpaper or surform, it isn’t cured enough, give it a little more time. Remember, temperature is very important. A increase or decrease of 10 deg. Farenheit will halve or double your cure time, respectively.

Here are some threads that may help:

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=242323

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=247577

Do a search with “epoxy laminating” or something like this, and you’ll get tons of info.

Good Luck, and let us know how it goes!

JSS

17

thanks everyone. ill probably decide on the verdict tomorrow.

18

can I microbaloon/epoxy one side and then the other at the same time? throw some wax paper down and seal both sides and peace out? or do i need to wait for one side to dry and then flip?

19

I had to wait until I culd flip it over, but if you read some posts above it’s better to seal both sides right away and then also start laminating right away for a better bond… makes sense…

20

Everybody’s always wanting with the flipping!

Put your board, bottom up, on your racks. Seal it & lap your sealing coat (whatever it is) around the rails farther than your glass will lap. Come back in 3-4 hours and laminate. 3-4 hours more and fill coat. Then have a couple beers and get some sleep. Next day, flip the thing, hit the laps with a surform, seal the rest of that side. 3-4 hours, lam the deck. 3-4 hours, fill coat the weave.

3pm-6pm-9pm or 4pm-7pm-10pm works great. Falling temps in the shop & everything. Don’t be in a hurry to flip all the time. You’ll get the best chemical bonds out of your epoxy if you do it like this, including the laps of the second lam over the rails from the first one being within 24 hours. And sealing the deck after you’ve finished the bottom really helps fill the edge of the glass from your bottom lam so you don’t have to grind or sand it as aggressively.