A friend tore the plugs out of his board. They are the new fcs plugs that appear to be inspired by Probox Larry. It’s xtr foam. I assume I need to use epoxy. My concern is melting the foam when the epoxy cures and exotherms. Does xtr have a similar low melting point as eps? There is quite a bit of foam damage. Normally, I would clean itup, refit the plugs using resin+fiberglass+microfibers+white pigment and recap with a layer of glass. I don’t want to melt the guys board though. Any suggestions? Mike
XTR has a lower Mt!
Fill in 2 steps!
Repair the foam with either Dow Big Stuff or Hilti Spray polyurethane foam. available from Home Depot. You can also make poly foam by mixing Gorilla glue with water, and pasting it on. Gorilla Glue method takes longer, with more layers, but it seems harder. Elmer’s Nano Glue does the same. I hear there is a white polyurethane glue that does the same, but I’ve never seen it. Or mail order two part foam and fill ti in, but that is probably wasteful and expensive for a small amount.
Hey Rooster,
Sounds like you have the FCS Fusion plugs. The fix might be easy with just epoxy and fiberglass depending on the amount of damage to the foam.
Can you post a pic of the tear out and plug so we can determine the easiest way to fix it?
~Brian
Find a piece of XTR approximately the size of the damaged area. Route out this damaged area in a simple, geometrical shape. Cut the same shape out of the XTR piece, glue it in place. Re-route the proper “Fusion” hole and install as it should be. Just my 2 (Euro) cents.
Find a piece of XTR approximately the size of the damaged area. Route out this damaged area in a simple, geometrical shape. Cut the same shape out of the XTR piece, glue it in place. Re-route the proper “Fusion” hole and install as it should be. Just my 2 (Euro) cents.
That’s exactly correct! It’s a no brainer.
I’ve made over 200 XPS boards from scratch including the stringer and blank.
It’s great material, however too many people are afraid of it?
Surfding, thanks for the heads up on melting point. There is quite a little cavern of space in there. Maybe 3 steps?
Everysurfer, I might have some spray fill poly u laying around. I also have polyurethane glue. Does the density of the spray and fills approximate the xtr foam? I’m a bit surprised the plugs failed. He’s a big strong surfer, but he did not hit any objects. Just cranking the board around on a head high day.
Greenlight, I have not been able to get a photo up on Sways for a couple of years. Tried photobucket, too.
Balsa, I’m considering your option. I don’t have any eps scraps laying around, but I do have some polyurethane foam that might do the job. I’m thinking the xtr foam failed, not the plugs. Maybe something with a bit more density would be better to set the plugs in. It’s more time than I wanted to spend on the board. I’m charging my usual fee. A six pack of beer. Mike
It probably wasn’t a foam failure, I’d wager there wasn’t enough glass over the flange (either in the install,
or it was sanded away). When you ‘‘re-install’’, get the route depth so that the box sits flush or just below
the surrounding foam, and get at least two layers of fiber over. Don’t sand it off when you finish.
Hey SD…sent planer yesterday to you.
As far as this repair…he keeps saying “plugs” is it definte that the repair is a Fusion cassette or FCS round plugs?
I PM’d you about something I had ‘percolating’ upstairs in my noggin about XTR’s and the gassing tendencies…I may have found a penetrating barrier coat that wouldn’t allow gassing after laminating. Gotta test…if you have any scraps XTR, send me some to test instead of doing it out of one of the blanks I got from you…how many of those blanks are left, if any?
It’s close to the same density, but the properties are different. It is softer or “squishy”. You can’t really sand the spray can stuff, just trim it with a razor. The Gorilla glue methon is harder. They will take up space to keep the resin from pooling, but that’s about all. But then again, you shouldn’t trust any foam structurally. It’s also a light tan in color.
Interesting you mentioned a penetrating barrier for XTR; I’ve been wondering if you took penetrating tile sealer and sprayed EPS foam with it, would it soak in maybe 1/4 inch, to make any surface damage waterproof. I’m not sure what it would do to the adhesion of the epoxy, since it is also a grout release.
About the XTR and sealant thing, I’ve never worked with it, but it seems the gas has to go somewhere. It might seperate the foam just under the sealant layer. Has anybody tried to chamber XTR like the balsa guys do? This would give the gas somewhere to collect. Has anyone ever baked the foam under heat lamps, to just under the melting point to outgas it?
There’s an existing method for dealing with the outgassing of XTR blanks…I’m not real familiar with it but I believe they puncture or drill small holes through the rails before (or is it AFTER) glassing…if it is before lams, personally I don’t really see how this does anything of merit.
Traditional thinking says that the finer the weave the more the problem is likely to happen. I would think that something else that plays into this is how solid an epoxy you are using…along the lines of water proof versus water resistant under a microscope.
Keep in mind the difference in size of a water molecule compared to gas. This is the approach that I am looking to address.
As far as the penetration of EPS and water retention, you have to look at it more like the water rentention being held in the air space between the beads…it is not the bead absorbing all this water. What you are suggesting is more of a dual density approach which is already being employed by any number of manufacturers for various products and purposes, inlcuding surfboards, paddleboards, SUP’s and sailboards.
Many people believe that EPS will soak up a ton of water if left out to water exposure…well, I purposely left out a good sized block of 2 lb. virgin EPS in the recent rains we’ve had in CA and the stuff is the same weight.
Now the difference is in the action of a surfboard being warmer before going into cold water (atmospheric differentials) and the pumping action (compression) of a closed membrane, then being breached (dinged) that becomes subject to a different action.
The XTR is different from the EPS in that it doesn’t have large spaces between the material. It resists water exceedingly well when exposed to water under fiberglass laminations at 2.0 or 2.2 lb. density. The problem is its R factor…I spent a good amount of time trying to address getting a superior bond while laminating the old Dow extruded foam we worked with in the 80’s…even using trowels to create maximum tooth for a superior mechanical bond…also presealing variations, all to no avail… Especially if the board was a darker color.
Another approach is to use insulating paint…there is a material that NASA developed that not only insulates from heat, it also insulates sound. This material can be added to household latex paint and it still does what it is designed to do, or you can order their paint as well…in the most basic sense, it reflects through the particles that are added to your paint…which can be interior, exterior, flat, semi-gloss, whatever…it is called HyTech Ceramic Paint Additive.
While this is one approach, it isn’t drastically dissimilar from just painting or pigmenting the board white. As far as the gassing 'having to go somewhere"…I’m not so convinced that actually has to be the case. Depending on the force at hand that the gas exerts when heated up on any given day, the guarantee of the gas having to succeed with ‘breaking out’ remains questionable.
Therefore that states the possiblity of a penetrating coat that also provides a barrier or impasse in which the gas cannot escape. Obviously this material that I have in mind has an existing performance record but has to be tested for compatiblity to epoxy resin(s). The material will NOT ALLOW water through BECAUSE it does not allow gas molecules through…a matter of record…so why not try it?
I hardly think the adding of skin to a 2.2 lb. XTR blank represents big weight savings nor is particularly cost effective, but it isn’t entirely out of the question given the range of PVC foams and other materials yet to be fully researched. The exclusion of a center stringer makes the finished weight more promising with that approach, however thickness becomes an important consideration in order for the sandwich construction to constitute its version of I Beam renforcement…the greater the thickness the greater the I Beam effect…no problem for thick boards but still quite a challenge for a 2" thick board getting huge air.
The cost only begins to approach being competitive when done on a large volume scale. In other words, a guy doing one off’s with a low cost vac bagging system won’t get rich or even modestly comfortable dedicating himself to this approach exclusively. He might stand out as the cool hi tech guy of the neighborhood though.
So in review, the simplest, quickest, most cost efficient manner to make XTR foam a viable alternative to existing foams is one possibility that is perhaps, worth exploring.
I have a friend who is a chemical engineer who gave me some material to spread over the xps once it’s shaped. I dries clear and smooth. It does work concerning gassing. However I think the biggest benefit is it’s anti-shearing effect. The failures with XPS normally are due to the unknowing shaper finishing the blank to fine grit before glassing. I leave mine finished to 60 grit (Kligspore). You can then apply this material for insurance if you like?
I have boards that are 3 years old that are still in perfect condition even after being in INDO?
I’ll be at my shop today and will look at this wonder coating agent and post the name and specs. (it’s not cheap) However is goes a long way.
I will share everything I have on the XPS for whatever it’s worth?
I had a strong believe in XPS because it is so alive and doesn’t loose it’s pop like PU and last 3 times longer.
For the price I thought it would be marketable? However we tend to have a discount mentallity.
PU glass job = $175 + or -
EP glass job = $250 + or -
PU blank $50 vs. XPS $75
$225 PU cost vs $325 XPS cost = $100 difference
3 PU $675 vs One $325 XPS
That was how I was looking at it?
When Channel Island placed a large order with me 3 years ago I really thought it was the future?
Solomon foam had Eric Arakawa shape some up for HB where local pro’s tried them out. (Five years ago!)
Rave reviews. The Pro’s where saying that they were getting a few more feet on their floaters.
Keep in mind that Eric also shapes unreal so was it the material or the shapes or both?
The decks were not denting even though the PU’s were crushing under there feet.
To make a long story short:
I bought truck loads of billets to bring down the cost of the XPS.
Built a woodshop and started making my own strigers and cuting and gluing my own blanks.
We were making 10 a day and filling large blanks storage racks we had built. I sold about 3
a week and ended up with a warehouse full of XPS. So I quit making them.
Funny because the local kids that got them all won NSSA contest on them.
Paige Ortiz a girl that never one an event started winning events when she switched to XPS?
For Groms their great because XPS yeilds a lighter board than PU/Poly. Plus their so much stronger.
I will still do some projects of my own with XPS because I still feel it has potenial.
However I will have a more cautious approach going forward.
Prudence as they say in France!
I plan on chambering one next. (Thanks EveryDaySurfer!)
Carbon Fiber/Impact Cloth/Vaccum Bagged/Parabolic
Will post pics if I can figure out how to?
The file allotment is so tiny on sways?
I would recommend against using the polyurethane glue+water method. I did that on a board for large sections and now, roughly two years later, all those sections have collapsed. Just a heads up.
Pat
Deadshaper, These are not the individual fcs plugs. Two fin tab slots in one unit. The new system. My main concern pooling and melting foam. Otherwise, it’s a pretty straight forward repair.
Mike D. It had a thick layer of fiberglass over the tabs. I’m not sure that is what caused it to fail. Should I cap it with a single 6 oz layer or double 4 oz? Mike
I do double 4 staggered. But glassing over with a continuous 6 oz should be sufficient. I just did a 4/4 EPS bottom with the Fusion underneath…sanded the tab openings clear and am good to go. These things work good and the plugs are a friggin head ache loser by comparison.
I know this has gotten way off topic, but they always seem to. Surfding, you mentioned your next board being chambered with parabolic stringers.
What do you think would happen if you wrapped three sides of the XTR core in carbon fiber - bottom skin and then the sides. Skip the wood stringers, and let the carbon skin replace them. This would tie the whole thing together structurally. Then your fin plugs would have a direct connection to the parabolic carbon stringers. After this step, add the rails.
If you don’t run the carbon stringers the whole length of the rail, you could create “flex zones”. I’m thinking about stopping the carbon stringers about a foot short of the nose, and letting the carbon bottom skin and corecell skins do the work. This would let the nose flex like a snow ski. I think this would make landing those floaters a little more forgiving.
About glassing, since the bottom is already done, but you still need to do the rails and the top, do the lap on the bottom, running it over the carbon.
I just got my vacuum pump running, and am about to order the foam. Figured I’d give it a try. This design might have a better chance of success if a real board maker did it rather than me in the garage!
I will built it the way you are thinking. Your Ideal can save me some time. PM me a plan and I can get started this week. I have 5 xps billets left from my clearance sale. I can make 10 boards. To get the weight, flex, strenth ratios to match up would be great. Plus I can use some of my anti-gassing materials for the coating. The problem I see is that instead of a guy ordering 6 boards a year he would only order one?
However maybe the surfer could have a more complete quiver if all his boards held up longer without loosing performance?
This will be the test pilot:
http://www.surfline.com/video/video_player/video_player.cfm?id=20592
Got Balsa ?
Herb
Thanks Deadshaper. Herb, was your balsa comment a hint for me? If so would you elaborate please? Mike