Filling large Dings with poly + microbaloons - Gumming up

Hello everyone,

I recently started working more with polyester and have been running into an issue with ding repairs. For example, as you can see in the picture, I am fixing a broken board. I put it together using a mix of polyester resin and microballoons. Since there was a fairly large gap and some delamination, I first filled it with foam, then added another layer of resin + microballoons on top to be able to sand it back to its original shape before lamination.

Sanding this has been a nightmare, as it keeps gumming up. I am aware that polyester only fully hardens with a wax additive, but since I want to laminate over it, I assume that isn’t a good idea, right?

How do you usually fill dings with polyester resin and microballoons and make it sandable at the same time? I have been having this issue a few times now and wasted a whole bunch of sanding paper.

Thanks so much for any advice,

Rebecca

Doesn’t matter as long as you sand. Lam resin without wax gums up. Although I have done many repairs with Q-cell and lam resin and never had a problem sanding. Cabosil though gums up.

Been a long time since I used polyester resin.

So, does poly resin with wax cure under the wax and eventually become sandable?

If so, seems like smoothing (with squeegee) a thin sheet of polyethylene plastic over the lam resin would allow it to cure. Block curing resin from oxygen contact. This would be like the Jimmy Lewis’ poor man’s vac alternative (method).

Did a quick Google AI search. Seems the answer to my question is yes.

  • Purpose of Wax (Hot Coat/Gloss): Wax enables the resin to cure completely hard, rather than remaining sticky, making it easy to sand.

  • Laminating Resin vs. Sanding Resin: Laminating resin (without wax) is designed to stay tacky for chemical bonding between layers. Sanding/hot coat resin contains wax to ensure a dry, grindable surface.

  • Action of Wax: The paraffin wax in the resin solution rises to the surface during curing to seal out oxygen.

    This would mean bonding with ding repair would have to be mechanical — sanded surface — if allowed to cure under thin plastic (polyethylene) sheet.

Regarding my previous response, do a test panel to confirm.

Rebecca you did a good job putting it back together and filling it. I for years have only used Q-cell and Cabosil. Using two part foam is excellent. I have a friend who does ding repair for all the major shops in Orange County and he uses two part pour foam for all the large repairs, crunched, missing foam etc. So you are doing what the pros do in that respect. I never have been too sure exactly what micro balloons are. Another name for Cabosil?? I don’t know? I do know that most pro ding repair shops use Q-cell for filling average sized dings and it does sand. Large repairs with Q-cell can often make the board noticeably heavier. I only use Cabosil to thicken resin, as it does not sand well. We used to call Cabosil “Resin-Thick”. I use it for fin box installs like Greg Loehr does in his Epoxy glassing video. So I can’t remember; but is Cabosil the same as Microballoons? If it is you should be using Q-cell as a filler.

Cabosil is fumed silica — a mineral powder for thickening resin.

“Q-Cell is a lightweight, white, powdered filler made of microscopic hollow glass spheres (microspheres).”

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Use foam filler than skim coat with micro balloons. Using just filler will add so much weight and no flex.

Which would mean “Microspheres” are not “”Microballons”.

Yes spheres my bad

Yes. But light weight and easy to sand, unlike Cabosil.

EDIT: Misread your post. Microballoons are hollow like Q-cell microspheres. Lemat uses microballoons for his pre-seal slurries.

My old boss building boats on Sand Island told me that microbaloons is more filtered than qcell the spheres are all uniform and same shape. While q cell the spheres or voids are all random and not the same size.

Yes. Glass microballons are supposed to be better than Q-cell microspheres. And glass microballoons and Q-cell microspheres are hollow, not the same as Cabosil.

“Q-cell is often lighter, cheaper, and easier to sand than microballoons.”

Yeah for years and God only knows how many dings, used Q-cell and it always sanded. Cabosil NO.

Hullo Rebecca,

Okedokee, a few things.

First off, nice job. Fixing a busted board, well, getting the alignment right is the key. Looks like you did it right.

Next, yes, the resin plus filler is what’s giving you problems. You’re having unhardened unwaxed resin gooing up your sandpaper, not fun. See, here’s the thing, the styrene wax (styrene is the thinner/solvent that’s in polyester resin so that’s the wax they use. It’s also why polyester resin eats styrene foam) that’s added to laminating resin to make sanding resin rises to the surface and forms a molecules-thick boundary between the air and the resin and allows it to harden. When you sand that, you go through the layer and sand hardened resin, all fine.

Now, when you’re laminating, ideally you want a chemical bond between your lamination layer and whatever you put on top of it, another layer of cloth or a hot coat, say.

But the bond between your lamination and the underlying foam (or between the hotcoat and the gloss coat) is a mechanical bond: the resin permeates the surface a little and hardens and that’s how it sticks. For instance, if you look at the underside of the glass that ripped off when the board broke, you’ll see a thin layer of foam and if you scrape it a little you’ll get to foam that’s sort of saturated with resin.

Okay, I’ve told you how it works, but what can you do now? Well, what I’d do is take a little catalyzed waxed or sanding resin and very carefully brush it on top of your uncooperative filler and wait, when that is well hardened I think you’ll be able to sand it and your filler, without gumming up your sandpaper. You’ll sand through that molecules-thick layer of wax no problem.

A few other things-

Cabosil, or glass microballoons, they are what’s called ‘thixotropic’ additives. Like the name says, they act to make the resin thicker, like corn starch or flour when I make gravy or thicken a sauce. There’s nothing particularly magical about them, when doing dings on an island in Panama I didn’t have any so I used sugar ( makes it sparkly) or talcum powder, both of which worked fine. I didn’t want to be wandering around Central America with bags of white powder, y’know? When I sanded the talcum powder filler it smelled nice too.

Some of the epoxy boat guys use sawdust to make filler. It’s all rock and roll.

Now, again, with the sanded filler, you’re not gonna get the chemical bond you get with resin to an underlying layer of laminating resin. But the mechanical bond will be fine.

But let’s say you only have sanding ( waxed) resin and you have to laminate with it and you want a better bond for whatever ( hotcoat/filler coat, let’s say) you’re putting on top of it. But, you’ll never get all the wax, considering the weave texture of your lamination, without sanding away a lot of the cloth. Whatcha gonna do?

Like I said, the wax is on the surface, a few molecules thick. Wash it, with either styrene monomer or acetone and scrub gently with a new white rag or a new chip brush. Colored rags, the stuff can dissolve the dyes and pigments and transfer them to your lamination. The natural bristle brushes won’t dissolve in the resin or the solvent. The fumes from either one ain’t good for you, so be sure to use a mask with organic vapor filters, like you should use whenever doing glass work.

Okay, hope that’s of use

doc…..

In general in surfboard world we say microballons for hollow glass microsphere (white powder) but in boat building world microballon is red brown and it’s a kind of plastic microsphere. Microsphere lower mix density and increase fluid viscosity but it’s not tixotropic. Fumed silica, cabosil, is tixotropic agent. Common to mix both to the needed texture.

For sandable polyester mastic i always use wax in styrene.

Starting at 2:20 in this Jimmy Lewis video, I suspect you could use a similar approach for your ding repair with your laminating poly + microballoon mix so that resin will harden and become sandable.

Do a test panel first.

Have a look at this post. I use SANDING resin and QCELL. Laminating Resin is a bit of a different beast.

https://forum.swaylocks.com/t/cherrys-in-the-rough-restoring-some-70s-classics-to-ride/51134