I have felt that companys marketing old accessories need new tricks.
How well do carbon fiber fins really work? does the general surfing public feel the differance when riding on them? Are they noticably lighter? stiffer out of turns etc…all what sales people say that there cracked up to be?
Does my scepticism fall in line with carbon fiber tape laid on the stringer and resin channels grooved into the deck. and am i correct for doubting?
I was given a carbon fiber fin, it is 9.5" and has s good shape to it. I put it on my board and did not like it at all. It is way too stiff. I like a little flex in my fin. If you do like a stiff fin then the carbon fiber is a good idea. Pope came out with a hollow carbon fiber fin. This fin is very light and thick given you a better foil. So if you like a fin with out much flex that would be the way to go. I do not work for a fin company so it is nothing to me. I do like to try different fins, they can realy make a poor board a dream board.
I think one of the reasons an early fin innovator (Greenough) chose carbon fiber and stainless steel was to keep the foil thin and still maintain some stiffness. I think that was for use on his windsurfing equipment. Ironically he also developed flex devices (fins and glass spoon hulls) that are still used in surfing and kneeboard riding.
I’ve checked out the hollow carbon fin and although I really liked the foil and light weight, have one concern… what happens if you hit a rock and fracture the leading edge? Will it leak and fill with water? Is it a bitch to repair if that happens?
My solid glass Liddle flex fins have taken a beating - I always manage to hit a few rocks. All I do is tune them up by sanding away the ding and refoiling the leading edge - you can do it with a rock on the beach if you have to. They get progressively smaller in time but are still plenty usable.
I have felt that companys marketing old accessories need new tricks.How well do carbon fiber fins really work? does the general surfing public feel the differance when riding on them? Are they noticably lighter? stiffer out of turns etc…all what sales people say that there cracked up to be?
Does my scepticism fall in line with carbon fiber tape laid on the stringer and resin channels grooved into the deck. and am i correct for doubting?
I find that carbon fiber allows one to make fins twice as thin (at least) with just as much, if not more, stiffness as standard polyester glass fins.
There are obvious weight advantages, and perhaps not so obvious advantages in hydrodynamics. Thin fins are more sensitive to changes in direction.
I have no desire to put any flex in the fins. I am thoroughly convinced it is MUCH better to put the flex in the finbox.
Carbon fiber anything is way too damn expensive. “Normal” materials work just fine. If you have a strong “mad scientist” bent, and like to work with dangerous materials, carbon is your ticket. Just don’t inhale carbon fibers, and don’t sand without HEPA filters and HEPA dust collection, just like asbestos abatement. After that, have at it, it’s your money, your health, your life.
There is pretty stiff circuit board material G-10 or G-12 which is kinda already layed up.
Plenty stiff; some of the work is already done, and G-10 is not too expensive.
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Aren’t most fins gimmicks in one way or another? What does it matter?
Carbon fiber anything is way too damn expensive. "Normal" materials work just fine. If you have a strong "mad scientist" bent, and like to work with dangerous materials, carbon is your ticket. Just don't inhale carbon fibers, and don't sand without HEPA filters and HEPA dust collection, just like asbestos abatement. After that, have at it, it's your money, your health, your life.
Material cost difference is about $4 per fin, comparing my standard 36 layer 6 oz polyester resin layup to a carbon fiber/glass combo layup with epoxy.
Material data safety sheets on polyester/glass and carbon fiber/epoxy are not really substantially different. You don’t want to inhale either, but neither’ll kill you.
Normal materials cannot make a 7 inch deep fin that is thinner than 0.350 inches and stiff enough. Carbon fiber and epoxy let you go to half as thick, and maintain stiffness. That is a major change.
I have no plans to make anymore polyester resin fins. The lower toxicity of Loehr’s epoxy, and the performance of the thin fins, is more than enough to convince me.
In a thruster fin set, carbon fiber is typically used to reduce weight and maximize stiffness. We make injection molded carbon fins because people want them. To be honest, they are not my cup of tea. Carbon actually has a higher specific gravity than nylon. So, to maximxize lightness we need to minimize the carbon in the fins. The carbon fins end up being 20% lighter and slightly more flexy than 50% glass filled nylon.
But, I do like air cell cored fins with carbon fiber cloth. I can surf a smaller template with a stiffer lighter fin and not loose drive. Less drag and the same drive is a very good thing.
i have tried the pope hollow fin in my longboard-the lightness is noticeable, but feels good.it is a good fin but yes, much too stiff for my liking.as for g-10, true ames makes fins with it and the flex/memory of the stuff is great.from now on all my fins will be either volan or g-10.(the g-10 seems a bit more resistant to those rock dings Mellor alluded to.)
g-10 is epoxy/glass laminate.
Blakestah writes "Material cost difference is about $4 per fin, comparing my standard 36 layer 6 oz polyester resin layup to a carbon fiber/glass combo layup with epoxy.
Material data safety sheets on polyester/glass and carbon fiber/epoxy are not really substantially different. You don’t want to inhale either, but neither’ll kill you."
I respond…
The cost difference you cite looks like it’s for production of many fins, not just one or two like most of us are gonna lay up.
I don’t accept that the MSDS is a complete or adequate explanation of the hazards of any material. They aren’t intended for that purpose, or audience. Clark Foam is a “fully reacted polymer” and presents a “nuisance dust” hazard on their MSDS. Not enough. Shoot, cigarettes don’t even have an MSDS…
In speaking with an airport fire captain once, he brought up the hazards of burning components in composite aircraft. Granted this is not the specific hazard we are looking at, but at the airport, they would deploy what amounted to a giant perforated hose to create a linear fountain or vertical sheet of water droplets to bring down the particulate. His point was that carbon fiber was really bad shit to breathe.
Sure, it probably won’t kill you (today). Neither will cigarettes, heroin, alcohol or a lot of the little gratifications we may choose. But the person at risk should have at least a little knowledge, to be aware, assess, and choose which risks he will accept…
Blakestah writesQuote:Material cost difference is about $4 per fin, comparing my standard 36 layer 6 oz polyester resin layup to a carbon fiber/glass combo layup with epoxy.Material data safety sheets on polyester/glass and carbon fiber/epoxy are not really substantially different. You don’t want to inhale either, but neither’ll kill you."
The cost difference you cite looks like it’s for production of many fins, not just one or two like most of us are gonna lay up.
Actually, I calculated it for three fins. The thing I didn’t tell you is how many layers of carbon I used.
I don't accept that the MSDS is a complete or adequate explanation of the hazards of any material. They aren't intended for that purpose, or audience. Clark Foam is a "fully reacted polymer" and presents a "nuisance dust" hazard on their MSDS. Not enough. Shoot, cigarettes don't even have an MSDS....But the person at risk should have at least a little knowledge, to be aware, assess, and choose which risks he will accept…
My only point was that arguing for a polyester/glass layup and grind over an epoxy/carbon fiber layup/grind is apples and oranges. I’d choose the epoxy and carbon every time. Especially because I only use the carbon near the center of the stack and thus don’t grind much of it at all.
And, polyester resin layups are exposure to carcinogenic organic volatiles in the styrene. The MDSS on the RR epoxy vapors are pretty benign in comparison. With respect to the dust, both types are benign, but you don’t really want to inhale dust even if it is benign.
Just my subjective impression - the epoxy dust is a lot less bothersome than the polyester dust, FWIW.
I just don’t see the criticism that you shouldn’t grind carbon/epoxy b/c it is so toxic. I say this after reading the MDSS and grinding both types many times each. Maybe I am about to keel over - but I hope it is after this swell coming on Friday…
good surfing to you, honolulu
Look closely at the fin at the end of the Greenough trailer! Tell me what you see!
wood, glass, and a any sticky goo that eventually hardens makes a very nice fin…
i absolutely agree with what your getting at… turbo tunnels, “rotating” fins, $75 carbon kryoptinate ti2s, curved fins… the big problem with surfing is there is very little to sell, well until now i guess…buying the latest and greatest is not going to help anyone surf better…
the fin world is based so much on theory and “wind tunnel” testing… when under foot perfect foils, flex patterns, etc all amount to poop… just go sufing and enjoy.