hm…
thinking…
sleep on it
regards
BERT
Bert.
LokBox is not a bad option if you absolutely believe that with your construction methods you can not tie the bottom to the deck. But, one of the benifits of Red X is that the length of the box is shorter. So, the radius of the flex in the bottom can be tighter before it starts trying to pull itself away. It really comes down to the elasticity of the material your bonding the boxes in with. Whether you cap the boxes and going to extremes you could bond them in with a polysulfide in an extremely flex desired scenario. Personally, I like tail flex. But, I’ve never induced so much that our boxes wanted to pull them selves away from the board.
We don’t mold threads into the bottom of our fins and I would never recommend anyone to. You just have to press a brass threaded insert in to a hole in the root.
realisticly , the flex and shear movement is probably my last concern on that list , coz the tails get thinner and are reinforced anyway ,
my main concern is the amount of surface area i can glass over giving an even load spread and keeping a good seal ,
even in that photo you can see a small shatter on the back corner of the tail fin box ,where the other day i tried a 3o right on the shore on the close out and drove the fin into the sand …
ive yet to use a box where you get a true chemical bond to the plastic ,it never seems to take much effort to make the glass lift off (even if its roughed with 40 grit)and then water seeping in underneath…thats been my main problem area with red x in the past , theres not enough area for me to glass over , then when i have ,its been a tricky job to get a good finish, as i have to make a clean even cut through the finished glass job ,where as the futures just sand and its finished…
i see lok box has something similar , but where the screw is situated it comes real close to the edge of where your glassing over…
for anyone who builds poly p/u its not as much of an issue,but for me with eps , i need the boxes to be as sealed as possible…
i use to mould my own boxes from fibre and epoxy , it almost crossed my mind to revamp the mould and go back to them ,coz they got a true compatible resin bond,
but idealy id love a finished product that was well suited to my needs , but there doesnt seem to be enough eps builders yet ,to warrant a design more specific to our needs …
but any way thats that…
tom whats your take on the futures saga im having…
should i just wear it???
what would your reaction be if i brought your boxes and made my own fins???
has this type of thing happened before???
regards
BERT
FCS used to be very proactive about protecting it’s product against other fins for their plugs. Then Dave Skedowski/ Surf Co. won a suit they had brought against them by FCS for his Pro-Teck fins. We entered into a licensing agreement with Surf Co. allowing them to make fins for Red X boxes. Now, FCS handles their preceived dilemna by only selling plugs with fins.
I’ve always used the Sony Beta vs. VHF as my model on how to approach the market. Beta was a higher quality format and should have dominated the video market. But, Sony was very tight about licenses and competition. VHF made their format available to everyone. VHF dominated the market until DVD came along.
I encourage people to use Red X and their own fins. We have no problem with selling boxes alone. Although I’ve got to admit that most orders we get are for fins with boxes.
Hey Bert,
Nice photos Bert. Did you put a bend in the wood before you stacked the glass on the high pressure side or did you foil the concave out after the lay up?
What kind of wood is in the fins?
The Template looks stiffer than my ‘Mental’, but I have other templates that have proven much stiffer then the fin you show in the photo. cutaways can be templated and foiled to be very stiff. You’ve drawn out the rake some and extended the fin template a little. I’ll bet it holds very nicely as the board gets some speed. From the my perspective the cutaway of your template could be smoothed out a little but that’s just one foiler’s opinion.
After sleeping on it I think that what was said to you came from someone who spoke out of turn and wasn’t representing the Future Fin company’s policies accurately. Some guys with big egos go off half cocked on a regular basis. They like to act like they have a hell of a lot more power than they really do. It happens all the time and more often than not is a result of testosterone poisoning. I would consider the source of the comments made to you carefully before acting on them.
I reolize that you’re out in the boonies in N.W. OZ and with minimal touch to the outside world I can see where someone would try and pull the wool over you eyes in the interest of trying to make a buck. The the thought process that drives these kinds of warnings is one that believe that minimizing competition will increase sales. It’s very short sighted busniess policy. It’s never worked in the surfboard industry and it never will. Competition drives the health of industry it’s the nature of the economic process. It seems to me that what you’ve been up to all the time is everyone’s best interest. I would revisit the issue if I were you and confront whoever did the warning and offer some of the points I’ve made on this thread and any of you own that may enourage the light of reason to dawn on him. We are just two small voices but we count. Tom’s system is certainly worth a hard look it’s very well engineered. It’s a matter of what works best for you.
Here in Santa Cruz it’s a different story. One goes over to Fiberglass Santa Cruz or Fiberglass Hawaii and buys fin boxes. It’s up to the shaper and ride where the fins they ride come from. Boxes and fins are sold separately. It’s the way business is done here.
Attached is my second cutaway fin. It has a high density foam core and was done in '74 or '75. It’s on an 8’3"x21.5"x3.0 custom Freeline. I didn’t reolize it at the time I made it but I see now that it is reminiscent of a tiger shark pectoral fin. My buddy Jeff sent me some photos of one and the attached photo shows the similarity.
Keep the faith because the cycle continues.
Gone Surfin’, Rich
as it was told to me , it was a mike/vince decision…we have one person in oz who sells futures,hes 4,000 kms away so he posts everything i need …i have no other options for getting them other than getting them sent from america…as far as the aussie rep is concerned ,he isnt allowed to sell them to me and he’s stuck in the middle .he cant understand whats going on ,ive given him all the logical arguements , but hes just doing what hes told , he said he doesnt wanna lose his job over it …ive rung him everyday and still no clear answer…hes still waiting on a response from mike who is in the states at the moment…
im more inclined to say mike is the main instigator,as he is the one who has seen alot of my R&D work , we also got together so i could test surf and appraise some of there latest fins ,i just told it like it is and why it is ,because im not a yes man , i wasnt sold on the high tech marketing blurb , that has everyone else standing there with there mouth open saying,o these guys must know what there talking about…
i dont think mike is used to people refuting his line of reasoning, because theres so few people who actually understand whats going on …
most of my latest work has been based on validating and analysing other peoples work and concepts and blending them with some of my own proven designs in an effort to improve …
and ive found that every observation youve made about design Rich ,has proved correct , my angle has been about finding the priciples of physics of why certain designs act the way they do ,so alot of my test ideas may not be functional designs , but they do answer questions …
what you said about my foils were entirely correct as well , those ones in the picture are the ones that work best in that board ,
the board is light ,fast and sliperry , so those fins allow me to keep feeding the power right through the turn and out the other end , taking advantage of that wide tail … with out those fins i wouldnt be able to load power into that tail …
it means i can make my own speed from nothing …i pulled off a wave the other day and did a few quick pumps and kept it moving on flat water for a while …
i do have way more fins ive tried in that board as well , some so raked and full in the tip there extreme …i had one set that made the board go so fast …only problem was i couldnt turn , but for generating mach speed , then boosting and completing your turn in the air , they would go off for that ,i get all aprehensive about the landings these days …want to surf another day …
regardless of what futures do im still gonna post my findings on vectors and assymetrical foils and the reasons why i think they feel the way they do…
im a firm believer in function not fashion…
its obvious to me that mike knows my recent line of experiments will cast doubts on what theyve spent some serious time and effort developing ,but it also shows some areas where futures have made significant design improvements for certain styles and condititions…
i realise i may cause some frustration for them ,
but only concern is better performance and more efficient designs , regardless of commercial consequences…
if i know a guy is gonna walk into a surfshop and do his dough and get ripped off for product that is overpriced and hyped up and is not going to do anything for his actual surfing needs , or the product has been sold as the latest and greatest , when in reality its just hollywood …
im gonna speak up …
coz greedy commercial attitudes really fire me up…
on the other hand if i see genuine value and real refinement i will speak up as well ,
i consider myself to be a fair person ,even if it means i would lose out …
until i get a clear answer from futures as to the reason why ive been locked out , i will reserve any decision…and if it is indeed just one person wielding an ego , im not 100% sure at the moment???
tom or rich do either of you guys have any contact with vince??? or any one else who runs futures??? what exactly is mikes relationship with the company???
maybe its only mikes toes who are being trodden on???
rich by the sound of your last post it indicates you may know something???
like you say Rich i am out in the boonies ,who else could i contact for some clear answers???
see what happens???
regards
BERT
Hey Bert,
From my point of view keeping progress on this matter and open letter is in the interest of all the innovators out there in the surf world.
Although it is true I'm much closer to the source than you are I'm just a speck on the map. I keep making fins of new design all the time and keep learning from my experiments just like you but the number of fins I make is just a drop in the ocean of fins out there. I’m not into high production anyway. R&D is what it’s about for me.
Your supplier has you over a barrel right now. Regardless of his explanation of why he won't supply you with product at this point you have to go to the source and confront them. You don’t have a reasonable explanation at this point IMHO so you have to get on with the process. IMHO it would be best write a letter to Future Fins and demand an explanation. Get something that states their policy in writing buddy. Your supplier doesn't make company policy. He has an interpretation of it that may or may not be correct -- if he’s wrong so much the better -- if he’s right it will be confirmed by going to the source. Phone calls cost too much for you and you can spend forever trying to get to the right person and in the end you not dealing with a person you dealing with a company. If you want me to call them and try and talk to someone I will. I may get the cold shoulder but who knows. I can't imagine why they wouldn't want someone like you on their team but there are many strange things going on in the business world that neither of us will be able to explain but a letter just may just do the trick when it comes resolving the situation.
Once you get a statement about their policy you can weigh you options and go from there. You may have to move on with another system that you can make the fin tabs on without too much complex tooling or too many production steps. If you want any help let me know. We can work on a draft of the letter via email if you like. One thing sure is that if you speak up something may happen. If you don't you'll just be stuck in limbo for who knows how long. They may ignore your which would be very bad for they business future in OZ.
We are all preceded by our reputation. The future is an untouchable thing. I hope the fin company of the same name doesn't turn out to be the same way. After all we're all participating in the experiments of surf-craft development at what ever level our gifts and intentions and resources allow us to and our journey of invention is always quite an odyssey. One never knows where or when the next obstacle will appear.
Mahalo, Rich
Bert
The only way out for the future (no pun intended) is to go your own way
If you customer base is strong they will support you.
The patents etc crack me up,at its best a fin box is just that a box mankind has been using versions of these for years,look under your dining room table where the legs attach thats a mortis/tenon join look familiar!look at a sailing dinghy rudder and center board same again
They are every where just a few screws etc in different places.
And fins didnt they start with people copying fish and shark fins.
Some people belive that just because they manufacture things they are the inventers,most of what we have on this world is adaptations of individuals ideas.
There are very few things out there that are not made up of a collection of ideas which are then built up on.
If the big companys had there way surf equipment would not improve.it would just change colour,after all why spend money on R&D setup and new tooling if you allready have the lions share of the market.
These are the reasons that I try not to support the large orginizations
except for blanks leg ropes wax and wetsuits I build build every thing myself from finboxs to boards.
I develop ideas and pass them on to others freely as do so many others its just a shame that the greedy get hold of them and exploit them for there own gain
Regards Mike
There is a tool called a design patent. The explaination I was given is if you were to design say a tea cup handle you could patent that exact design and no one can copy that exact design. However someone could make a small change say add a little extra curve here or there and your patent would not protect you. That said, since rocker templates are exact then perhaps a design patent would work. I will caution you I’m not a lawyer so you should check with a patent lawyer first. But I did get this explaination from a very high priced Philadelphia patent attorney. I work with lawyers entirely to much and my experience is you have to keep your head, do a lot of thinking on your own, and ask the hard questions. Trust your instincts. My suggestion when it comes to hiring a patent attorney is to go with the one with the top floor view. In the long run they will save you money. YOU will want the experienced firm. (see attached for reference)
I havnt seen anything on the Futures fins that could warrant anything other than design patent and even then they started with public domain information (from me) so how defensible can it be?
[<a href="http://www.woodcock.com/home/home.htm">http://www.woodcock.com/home/home.htm</a>]
“There is no art without imitation.” I think it was Salvador Dali who said that. He also said “I do not take drugs I am drugs.” And my favorite is his list of his favorite things “Gold, ammoniac and syphilis.” LOL (whatever that means it’s funny). The USPTO will ask you for prior art and you will be required to submit a list of patents that preceed your idea. So what is true for art holds true for the laws protecting intellectual property and inventions.
Bahne’s FU box was a variation on a box by Doyle, but the main difference is the sliding feature. The Bahne patent does not mention the Doyle box patent number in their application because as the story goes they were both filed about the same time. When I searched the patents the granted dates are within a few months or one another. So that tends to substantiate that story. Did Bahne get his inspiration from Doyle? If so did he improve on it?
Shapers dont live in a vacuum and one of the hardest things for me is to ask a pro to test ride one of my ideas without causing a minor stir. That tells me the surf world is starving for new ideas and it takes a top level pro to get them noticed. I’d just like to get some quality pro testing done without letting the cat out of the bag.
As I said Bert, screw Furtures, go with Lokbox. It’s just a box. Lokbox happens to be better. Get in touch with JJR @ SufferMag’s forum.
Get on with it. It’s not drama; it’s putting boxes in boards.
Rob
Edit: Sorry if this sounds harsh; I wrote it very late at night.
Bert, I’d be happy to help you out however I can. We encourage people to make their own fins for our box. We believe we have one of the best anchoring systems for a surfboard fin available today. I also agree that taking others ideas and improving upon them is progress. We aren’t trying to patent any 25 year old designs either. It’s about fins and boxes, and performance of surfboards for us. If the red-x system is not an option for you, maybe Lokbox could be. Send me your adress, and i’ll send you some samples. Just cover the area where the screw goes in with some putty, smooth out the edge on the cavity side, swab the whole cavity with mold release agent, fill with lam resin and milled fiber, insert fin into box, set the desired angle, let it kick, then pop it out. cut the slot where the plate inserts on the side of the base, and you got a fin. Raw base width 2 and 1/4 inches. Raw base depth 7 /16 ths. lokbox@sbcglobal.net
So that’s how. Distance leads to innovation. Cool.
Bert, I wouldn’t worry about it. First of all, a design patent is as far as they could go, with the fins or the boxes. We make a small C5 fin for our miniature Lokbox. It has a foil on both sides. similar to what futures calls a “vector”. There are a million different variations of this foil.
They are all public domain and are available right here- http://www.icemcfd.com/cfd/naca.html It’s where we found our foil, although they think we copied it from them. Not just dumb surfers here.
Attempting to patent one of these foils is just plain foolish. Even if you did, someone has to change it only 2 percent and it’s free reign. Besides, a judge would have to entertain a law suit before it could happen. Futures patents are very vague, and used more as a scare tactic than anything else.
Number 1 criteria for a patent: Must be novel (never done before). As mentioned on this site in the past, the underside of every birds wing, and airplane wing, has this type of foil. It’s hardly novel. Doubtful if a suit would be ever entertained. I’d demand the boxes. If they say no, go here- lokbox@sbcglobal.net
Might want to take a look at this as well.
Get a copy of “Theory of Wing Sections”
Amazon has it for a little as $8.95 here
It’s required reading for naval architects.
Looks like a vector on the cover .
Bert,
E-mail me at <a href="mailto:tom@daumtooling.com" class="bb-url">tom@daumtooling.com</a> .
Too many questions to let this best of threads die! Tom and Lokbox - do you plan to offer any “cut away base” fins anytime soon since so much has been written about them in this thread ? If they are better I’d think it’d only be a matter of time. I myself just altered some basic FCS G5 fins to cut-away bases with the help of a large rounded bastard file, and they look identical for all practical purposes to the ones shown earlier on this thread. Very easy to do. I 've only had a chance to test them in small but quick decent chest high waves, but they did seem to pivot a little bit quicker off the top. I want to see if this is a good feeling in head-high and better waves. It might not be. Also with the two tab design on the FCS, it leaves me wondering about the strength of the back tab since now the fin-tab junction is so small and appears like it could be weak. A longer box (Futures/Redex etc) would make me feel better.
Tube Dog,
I'm in the process of fitting some of Halcyon's feather fins with a cutaway root into our Red X system for testing purposes. Halcyon already makes them to fit Futures. Once I've had a chance to evaluate the concept we will decide whether making umpteen zillion would be a good idea or not. At this point we will just have to see. More than likely, you will see cut aways on thruster fins in the near future. But, at this point the only one I can point you towards is Halcyon.
hey guys im finnally back …
had some mysterious computer trouble…had to get a new system…luckily all my most valuable information is stored in my brain…
any luck guys with a contact for me ???
next obvious choice is get an email from there web site…
the concave foil thing is still coming ,but i dont have time right now ,had heaps to catch up on with out a computer for 4 days…
im gonna post some pics of a project im currently working on …
i offered it to futures , but it looks like they have rejected it before they even got to see it …theres 2 photos one of some floating fins ,the wooden fin floats and weighs 58 grams ,the lightweight moulded fin is thicker with a little more volume and weighs in at 38 …
the second photo is some lightweight moulded carbon fins i was doing in 97/98 in a vac/autoclave setup,they weigh 20 grams each…
what im up to now is perfecting the technique for moulding bases for fin boxes onto those superlight floating fins…
just thought id throw these in just to show futures what they will never get …
no matter what the offer could be …
i will gladly sell this construction technique , my only request is a guaranteed supply of fins for all my boards and obviously a small percentage for my efforts …
i have no interest in running a fin producing bussiness…
actually stoked i managed to save these pics from my dead computer …they were the only things that remained uncorrupted in my recent mishap…gota be happy with a small win…
regards
BERT
Hey Bert,
I rather doubt Future is going to be up for buying your techniques. This isn’t to say that you’re not on to something real progressive. I think it’s more that you live in such a remote place and they are right in the middle of the media sales blitz, which keys everything they do to the American market place. One innovator is pretty easy to step on particularly when he’s damn near in the outback. Frankly I think a hand written letter demanding a policy statement is the ticket.
I wonder how much royalty George Greenough gets for all the templates of his that are used all over the world by the many manufacturers that do. None is undoubtable the answer.
FCS used to make you buy a set of fins every time you bought a set of their fin boxes. They finally gave up on the idea for obvious reasons. Future will end up with a similar policy eventually. They just need a good swift kick in the ass!
Keep up the great work, Bert. Do what you think best and keep the photos coming.
I suspect we’ll talk templates soon.
Sorry about the computer glitch at your end. Hope you get everything straightened out ok on your PC.
So far ~ here’s the way the platter rides the best in the attachements.
Next is “The Pepper.”
Gone Surfin’, Rich