Fin trailing edge from rail

TaylorO · April 17, 2011, 2:31pm

Great stuff KiteRider and Mr. J -

That’s a lot of work you’ve done Mr. J. Am I safe to assume your drawings are extreem to make a point? As I am sure it would be rare for you to get so much of your board out of the water on a hard turn, let alone riding high to make a section. But, then again, if you are pumping while high in the pocket… You are certainly pushing 'em out of control. And, there does appear to be more cant on the Bush Man.

If you could - take and post pics showing the the profile/rocker/foil/fins of the rear half of those board, and from the tail forward showing bottom contour as best as possible. My suspicion is it’s more in the mix

screwfoot · April 17, 2011, 3:53pm

one downside to edge fins with lots of cant placed 1"- off rail is their tendency to " hook" your foot. Usually happens when dealing with big soup, duckdiving larger breaking waves etc. The tip of fin cuts right above the heal on the inside of foot. Too close to the achilles tendon to be ignored. Safety is boring but worth considering. Carry on.

4wfs.com · April 17, 2011, 6:37pm

Kite rider, and Mr J, thank you for your contributions...

all make interesting reading indeed...

To both, i feel that so many of these experiences we feel in our boards cannot be isolated to one factor or another.

there are so many factors from : thickness-distribution, rocker, thickness of laminate, stringer material and thickness, tuck under edge, toe-in, cant/splay, to actual fin placement that will determine how a board "responds" from rail to rail.

As i firmly believe, that there are NO TWO identical performing boards, when u get a board with fixed fins, or equivalent in fin systems like FCS and Futures, the board has only "X" potential for each surfer/rider.

What i have noticed over the years, surfing boards with 4ways, is that i am in a position to jump on a board and whilst the board may not feel 100% at first, and adjust it to suit my own surfing style.

As a shaper myself, i have learnt to convert the information into real results to assist in transforming a board to make it surf the way I WANT IT TO, as opposed to having to adjust my surfing to suit the board i have just ridden.

Once u have had this opportunity to experience multiple fin positions and angles , on the SAME board, then u get to really understand the benefits that adjustability has to offer.... until then it's kinda like saying "u can see it, but u can't taste it!"

to Mr_J, i'd be stoked if u send more info on the 3 boards so that we can formulate a better understanding of each board's dynamics.

Regards

Deano

MrJ · April 18, 2011, 10:32am

Cheers TaylorO, yes I drew an exaggerated situation to illustrate a concept. I suspect in reality the top of the inside fin need not necessarily leave the water to initiate spin out - I guess a fin which is biting only a thin slice of the wave ie. close to the surface could lose grip. The board and fins are not to scale either, although the measurements are real and as accurate as I could get the tape measure.
[img_assist|nid=1058354|title=Dimensions and rocker figures of The One by Webber|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=480]

Yes it did take me a while to make the drawings, but I think conveys measurements and ideas so much better than a mass of words and figures. I think I am going to produce similar drawings for two of my other boards too for my own reference. Due to my city location I am a weekend warrior and those boards including mine are at the surf coast. however I have already collected some measurements which I think are more informative than just pictures. Pictures can sometimes distort the real situation.

MrJ · April 18, 2011, 10:38am

I wouldn’t try and pump the top part of a solid wave although I do sometimes pump the upper part of a small mushy wave. However as mentioned I do frequently take a straight high line to beat a section. Me riding the mid-wave on the Pancho Sullivan board below. I don’t think this board has ever spun out on me.
[img_assist|nid=1049524|title=nice waves in Vicco|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=428]

However just to show that I can do a bottom turn when a blatant opportunity is presented to me, here is a pic of me at my favourite spot. Ah Vicco niceness

MrJ · April 18, 2011, 10:41am

Cheers Deano, I do have more information on the boards, but I’ve already used my Swaylocks time for today producing my latest upload of drawings. So far I have only explained how well the fins of these boards hold in a wave for me. I will describe other aspects of how these boards ride for me tomorrow to help get a more complete picture.

I know you are passionate about the importance of tuning fin positions to the rider and board. I have spent a fair bit of time in the past fiddling with lockboxes sliding fins back and forth, however one of my boards does have your 4way system.

MrJ · April 19, 2011, 7:55am

Deano, I have already posted verbose accounts of my experiences with the [url=http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/bushman-high-calorie-potato-chip]Pancho Sullivan by Bushman[/url] and the [url=http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1014746]McCoy Nugget[/url], however a briefer summary of the Pancho Sullivan is that it is an oversized board for my small size and designed for Pancho who carries considerably more weight and muscle than me. I suspect thats why Bushman gave it such tall (but boxy) rails in the rear of the board. Despite these tall rails it I find I can push it quite hard and engage/bury the rail in small to large waves. Being 2 1/2" thick it paddles very well. So it makes a good step-up board.

The Nugget is unusual and produces quite a rideable board despite its extreme measurements. The notable thing is that it paddles exceedingly well (we would hope so at 3" thick with massive width), but is a beast to duckdive (the 6' 1" when combined with my small size). The heavy roll means that it can be easily banked from side to side despite its massive width and my small feet, however it gives a feeling of tipping from side to side with very little happening - normally I would expect to get little bursts of acceleration from rail to railing. Together with its tendency to spin out if too high a line is taken, its therefore not suited to mid-wave/upper wave pumping (even in mush). It works well top-to bottom and ridden this way is quite fast. The mid/upper wave style of riding is quite slow compared to a concaved board. Its been a while since I used it but I could push it fairly hard and get a feeling of wave engagement - there would be little rail burying but the rounded hull does engage the bottom of the wave.

The One in 6' 2" paddles very well - maybe even better than the Pancho, although at 2 5/8" thick and less finely foiled it is harder to duckdive. Again this board is oversize for me, but unlike the Pancho I cannot push it hard due to an inability to deeply bury the rail. Instead I get a feeling of it sitting on the surface when I ride it. Together with its lack of holding power high up on a solid wave this board therefore does not make a good step-up for me. It seems to turn more from the tail than the Pancho.

These are just [u]my[/u] experiences and of course individuals can get different things out of the same board, so I would like to qualify by saying that I do think all these boards are good. I say this coz I know my description of the McCoy hasn't gone down well with everyone and brought one McCoy enthusiast out of lurking just to tell me that I wasn't giving a fair assessment. However I'm probably not riding the boards like the makers intended. I have a strong feeling that a scaled down 5' 11" version of the One would work well for me in small to medium waves and although I'm unlikely to get the opportunity its something I would like to try - its just one of those boards I can't ride oversize comfortably.

All these boards very light/quite light which I like. All of them have fins set at typical HP shortboard positions 11 and 3 1/2" give or take an 1/8" or so.

My theories on why the Pancho Sullivan holds in well is as mentioned a combination of the outline curve in the tail, plus fins with a moderately high cant and fairly close to the rail, but there may be other things going on too.

4wfs.com · April 19, 2011, 8:34am

i will absorb all the info and get back to you later ok,

just swamped at the moment!

cheers

Deano

TaylorO · April 19, 2011, 3:56pm

Hey MrJ - Great details. The first thing that sticks out to me is the overall increased rocker in the Pancho… To me that suggests the curve of the board itself is helping hold it in up high - all the other features being what they are… I suppose if we could have two boards with everything about the same - as close to the same as could be - but with one having a rocker profile like the Pancho, and one like “the one,” then we could say something…