…(lol)…marketing people go to such great lengths , to justify marketing and selling “shit”…maybe “shit” has become a “commodity” ?..no one really needs a “pet rock”.
So… To get back on topic…
Are these Asian manufactured Firewire boards “shit” or really just a “commodity” ? Or simply really nice boards offered by a large company ?
Just asking? I honestly think that’s the REAL question.
It seems that some in the custom / hand crafted surfboard industry feel slighted by the thought that boards built by soulless mass marketing giants are even considered acceptable products.
To me… It’s not about who came up with a technology first and should therefore be declared “champ” or owner of a concept… It’s about where it goes from here…
Let’s get real about this tech… It’s just a variation of an older concept, with no real owner, patent or otherwise…
This sport, from a construction sense, is one of the few with constructors that feel the need to hang on to traditional old school values… I think it’s an ego thing?
I’m an avid Mountain bike enthusiast… I can go out and buy a hand built bamboo framed bike no problem… They’re pricey and they look really awesome … Are they state of the art ?.. Nope…
80-90% of the most advanced high quality mountain bikes are built off shore using robotic or computer controlled aluminum welding tech as well as skilled human welders.
Is this a bad thing ? I doubt that many serious mountain bikers complain about their soulless Asian bikes… They ride what ever is the BEST product regardless of country of origin …
It seems that some surfboard builders want to hang onto the romantic notion of what traditional surfboard construction really is (or more likely was.)… That’s fine… But why diss. modern big money driven tech.?
The same guys that are saying board building giants like Firewire are out of control soulless monsters, are most likely doing so via text on their latest and greatest mass produced Asian I Phone…
Hypocritical soap boxing’s a bitch…
Van.
I don’t think they’re “shit” at all…although , the durability has been questioned at times. My main criticism is simple…they mass produce in Asia , grab an extremely high market share , and by doing so , take jobs from a traditional industry which is now struggling…can it get any simpler than that ?..it has nothing to do with “soul”.
Yup. Thing is…they send folks like Mark or others on places like Swaylocks to feel the market out and get new ideas. Firewire didn’t think up anything on their own. They worked with folk from this site and others. Find those folk now and ask them what they think about how it all started. Their product is about on par with any surfboard on the market, but you can always find a person who does the same thing and will make it uniquely your own. If not and you don’t care…nothing really wrong with that either as long as you don’t buy into the B.S. and foul up the line up with more clones spewing attitude and company sales lines.
As for it harming shapers. Problem is…shapers themselves bought into all the stuff written about them and were trying to control their own market share. Some became Prima Donnas. Too many sold their label out for large market share and in most cases it bit them. The shop owners and Shapers had control of the industry at one time, but were so distrusting of each other and so jealous someone else might get some of their limelight they sold out. I think the local shaper if he learns his craft and plays his cards right can still make a living, but they could have controlled the entire industry rather than helping to create the corpo industry and their own future competition.
Some of us are not saying they are souless monsters or any other contrived emotional term. What they are is a business. Their business model is to tell as many people as will buy in that they are the " cool " item to buy. That they truly have their hearts in the soul of surfing and are the next generation of with it surfboards or etc. They realize that being closely linked to custom shapers gives them creditibility. Nothing wrong with it as long as they are honest about it. Where some of us take issue is when they attempt to blur the lines of reality and bend the market atmosphere to better suit their model. As mentioned before, they used the oldest trick in the book…they filled retail stores with inventory with extended terms, driving out or reducing local shapers and others from the shelves. This has drastically changed the dynamic and has put a huge pressure on local board builders who can’t afford to do that.
There isn’t enough profit in surfboards outside of Asia or other cheap labor to make a bunch of money unless you are some " legend " and can command huge prices and not care about long waiting times for you customer. So the corpo companies like Firewire appear to be driving the industry. Like many of the other companies those folk owned, they take long lunches, pat each other on the back at their early success, but every one of them wonder and are looking for the escape route or the next wave to jump on because they know that statitstically their time is limited. Think about it…how many surfboard companies have made it long term and made money.
Think about this…there are good board builders who are still building boards since the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s. You can find them still. They have seen it all and most have come to their own ideas about board design. Most all things surf have been done before. With the internet a surfer can research and find numerous builders in all areas of the industry to play around with product. Folks like Firewire are always behind when it comes to things because they don’t create anything. They just copy and then reproduce in larger quantities. When they do that, they must sell them and promote them them and create something new out of something not really new. Surfers could just as easy buy from the older shapers, but it’s much easier to walk into a shop. Many times the surfers know the shop owner and feel they are supporting local business…which they are. So…it’s really all in perspective. Shapers are no better or worse than shop owners. Both are just trying to make it and unforunately like any business in existence…buyer beware. The good ones are the smaller percent.
Once you put something out for sale. You are a salesman reguardless of what pitch you want to use or what mask you want to wear. All things in life put on the market require a manufacture and a salesman. Sometimes they are the same person and sometimes they are separate. The memorable ones take care of their customers, stand behind their products and deal honestly. If you do those things you are sometimes rewarded…but there are no guarantees. Humans enjoy being sold and they do really love hype. Even if they say they don’t. Folks love clever ads and feeling as though they are part of something larger than themselves. Ride what you want. Don’t let others dictate what you ride. Paddling out is ultimately what it’s all about. We that surf are just a passionate lot and love talking about it. The only way to get something you want, the way you want it, without having to depend on someone else doing it like you want it… is to shape it yourself. Hence…swaylocks.
I understand where you’re coming from and it is truly unfortunate…
Unfortunately it’s a global economy out there and everyone wants a piece of the pie. Some consider a surfboard as just another commodity and others look at them as hand crafted labours of love… Who ultimately gets exclusive rights to their construction and sales ? The craftsman or the greedy off shore giant?? Consider the fact that the Asian worker building boards just wants to survive and make a living too… He has as much right to build surfboards or anything else for that matter. Does he really care about surf culture and traditional boardbuilding history? Probably not and that’s where the “soulless” factor comes in…
I have no stake in any of this and I’m not siding with Firewire or any other surfboard mass producer… The reality is that these big players are active in this field and are most likely here to stay. I have no answers for this fact… It is what it is…And it can’t get any simpler than that… If their product fails then they’ll go away… If not ?
Kayu. You make hand crafted fine furniture… Others might be firefighters, musicians, or whatever… It’s probably not wise to put all your eggs into the surfboard building basket anyway… Diversify and survive … It’s all I can suggest to all those struggling in the surfboard building industry…
Van.
I don’t think anyone has a beef against the poor guy working 7 days a week for pennies on the dollar (he’s a victim too, regardless of whether he’s a willing victim because he chooses the lesser of two evils, and who wouldn’t?) He’s a guy who’s not concerned about whether concaves increase control at the cost of speed, or whether he has a right to make surfboards, his concerns are more like how do I feed the hungry mouths at home that depend on me.
Its those that exploit him for their own gain, and do so at the expense of the craftsmen who built the market, that wrankles.
A farmer from the hills of Asia can be taught to make copies of surfboards, but that doesn’t put them in the same league with guys who have a lifetime of experience in the shaping room and in the lineup, who put their heart and soul into translating that knowledge into a custom shape to maximize the surfing experience for the guy who is willing to pay what amounts to subsistence wages for a handmade surfboard.
Ask guys like Ace or Jim Philips or Bill Thrailkill what it took for them to get where they are, it didn’t happen overnight. Guys like me can come on here and pick up some pointers and make a passable board, but a true shaper has invested years and years of blood, sweat and hard labor for little pay along the way, to get where they are. (Shoot, I fought like hell just to get where I’m at, on board no 14!)
Yet we’re gonna tell the handshapers that created the modern surfboard that they’re now obsolete, ooh sorry about that, we’ll take their designs, mass produce them with semi-skilled labor, and they can get their cardboard sign and their tin cup and stand at the freeway offramps? - I’m not trying to point fingers or place blame here, just saying that in the bigger picture, something seems amiss.
Not to mention, how many young kids with a gift will never realize their potential, because there is no longer any market for their talent? “Sorry son, we have a machine that does that now, and some starving farmers in another country will finish 'em up and then we ship 'em here in sea trains for cheaper than it costs to pay you to sweep the floor. We do have an opening for a guy to stand on the street corner shaking his booty and waving a sign at the cars that drive by, 'tho.”
I know, I know, that’s the harsh reality of business in the global 21st century economy, etc. etc. I can accept reality, doesn’t mean I have to like it LOL!
Personalities and blame aside, the simple fact is that true craftsmanship will always be difficult to attain, yet is so undervalued in our modern society, and IMO the trend will continue until something crashes.
In my mind this quote from lcc really sums it up for me:
"selling surfboards for their ‘green’ content is just pissin in the wind
the ‘greenest’ board is the one built to last
and rides so well, the rider wants to keep riding it"
This has been my experience. I’m now riding boards that perform better than any I’ve ever had and are made by a small shaper. If you eductate yourself and do a small amount of research you can find guys near you just about anywhere in the world who are focused on making a lighter, better performing, more durable board. None of them have the marketing budget of Firewire, so they are much harder to hear about and don’t get they recognition they deserve. But I can guarantee you if you’re interested in a board built to last that performs extremely well, there are guys near you that you can work with and feel much better about supporting than what Firewire has to offer at a very similar, if not lower pricepoint.
There are two kinds of surfboard makers, custom surfboard builders and big box builders.
Custom shops have surfers making surfboards for surfers. The guys, and gals, working in the shops know what swell is running what the tides and winds are doing.
They usually know the first name of the guys and gals riding their boards and often surf with them.
Some of them make really good surfboards. others not as good, but try just as hard.
Some clear six figures a year, others barely pay the rent.
their mantra, build the very best performing boards that they possibly can
Their bottom line their love of what they do.
Big box builders are surfers who had really good business models
and are really ambitious and figured out how to grow and grow
pretty soon becoming CEO’s of companies whose product is surfboards
their mantra build the best surfboard they can for the least cost per unit
often using whoever is cheapest to build 'em
their bottom line their love of the bottom line
one’s not better then the other, and it’s not about marketing the
‘newest’ green, greener, greenest technologies
it’s about the value drive choice each surfer makes
when you pick up your surfboard and what it means to you
is it a glass slipper that takes you to the ball
or just sports equipments for use on the field
glass slippers are best built by custom glass slipper craftsmen
sports equipment is easily available at the big box sporting goods store nearest to you
I may have mentioned it before, but if joe shaper switched to EPS foam, and epoxy resin, hand lam, the process is basically identical, but results in either a lighter board, or a board of similar weight with a stronger glass job, which ends up being more "green", purely because it lasts longer. My .02 cents i guess.
Van helsing , I dont make furniture , just surfboards and custom wooden blanks. I share premises with my bro who makes furniture. …I run a service within the surfboard industry , so I get to see an accurate overview of the industry , and how it has developed over many years…I’m not complaining on my own behalf , because Ive always been reasonably busy , and that’s steadily increasing…There is a much broader agenda happening here , and that’s a general shift of all manufacturing jobs to “cheap labour” countries…they are our jobs , and our industries , because we created them …I don’t want to get into the politics of it all , but this " globalisation" nonsense is a con job , and both our countries do not need it at all , no matter how much they keep pushing it upon us against our will…However , a resurgence in the manufacturing sector has begun and should continue…it’s time to take a more introspective look within our own borders for solutions and to protect what we have built through hard work and innovation , instead of allowing those within our own ranks to just "give it all away " for some short term financial gains…
word
I’m riding one right now Beerfan. Have had many. I forgot how much less momentum they have when they are light, but they sure are lively on the wave. When covering lots of water is the call of the day I tend to like heavy poly better. Otherwise…I love epoxy and styrene done right. Love it in longboards by Stall.