Foam

Industry Talk
81

MD…singing the praises of EPS…imagine that!

I have felt what you are expressing here as I have moved through different available foams from different suppliers. I guess if I hook up a vac to my planer then I wouldn’t become the abominable snowman on sticky days and my eyes wouldn’t burn from the talc or whatever gets in them (uh, on 2nd thought, they probably burn from the styrene!)

Some folks just don’t like the ride EPS offers…I never had a problem with it. Maybe designers look at riding the different mediums more analytically than emotionally. Sometimes I loved the hollower bouyant feel of EPS on boards I didn’t want to bog down in gutless surf. Sailboards got off the line in light wind easier and SUP’s don’t have to be a back breaker getting them down to the surf.

Let’s face it…you cannot equal the strength to weight ratio of EPS in PE/PU…no how, no way…physics!

Is there another foam out there? Maybe, probably…is it economical enough? Maybe, probably not, at least at this point. However there may be new ways to lighten up existing cores of the conventional materials that we have yet to incorporate into them. Maybe an inflatable surfboard isn’t so far fetched? Maybe it could have a hard deck and bottom with some rails ribs that allow collasping the thing into a thin sandwich and then you inflate it to a desired stiffness rating desired. On the bottom skin are some high density inserts for the fin system.

Maybe some day we will look back at this thread and realize we were dinosaurs speculating about what the norm now is.

I seem to recall someone building a corrogated paper or cardboard surfboard and surfing it at Makaha or somewhere…this was late 60’s or early 70’s…forget foam use recycled treated aerated paper?

82
Quote:

Some folks just don’t like the ride EPs offers…I never had a problem with it.

EPS can ‘‘ride’’ a lot of different ways depending on how you skin it and otherwise reinforce… You and I

(and Greg, and others) understand this, but there ARE riders out there that dismiss all EPS cored boards

based on experience with a very small sample of the possibilities.

83

I would agree with that. Also, I’m sure you noticed how an EPS board ALWAYS felt lighter than a PU board that actually was the same weight. Distribution of weight in the perimeter (skin) versus core weight…the bigger the hull, the more noticeable!

84
Quote:
Greg,

Amen to the fact that finding another Gordon Clark in the industry is a rare thing.

SNIP

Aloha Steve and Greg

I add my agreement to Greg’s and Your comments above!

Perhaps the reason many of the larger users of EPS don’t make their own blanks is that the paradigm is virtually hardwired in them that you don’t make blanks, you buy blanks to make surfboards. I think it is just that simple for most of them.

You and Greg are being too kind. I am going to stick my neck out here… but… The reason there is very little vertical marketing in surfboards is PRIMARILY because surfers are lazy. And SECONDLY, because most surfers value “being cool” much higher then good business and profitability.

With this in mind, the coolest thing in the industry that one can be is a SHAPER. (assuming one isn’t good enough to be the world champion)

The constraining force in this was always the fact that one had to actually SHAPE and ones boards had to actually work good.

This really limited the amount of participants that could tap this method for achieving “cool” status. Because actually being a good shaper… required a LOT of work, as in raw physical effort, and it also required a LOT of skill and commitment to the craft to achieve the necessary results that might eventually bring a bit of fame and COOL ones way from shaping boards. This filtering effect narrowed the entrance to the playing field, and kept things a bit more (arguably) sane. It also drove an incredible amount of creativity and sifted to the top some very talented craftsmen over the years.

But for better or worse, things have changed.

If one is reasonably artistic and crafty with their hands, and chooses the right blank for their purposes, it is amazingly easy for beginners to produce decent working shapes right from the get go.

If they decide to access a shaping machine rather then hand shape, they can even skip right past the “artistic and crafty” requirements. If they measure their favorite boards and are comfortable with computers and vector drawing programs, they can produce great boards right from the get go. This takes a skill for sure, but it nothing compared to the raw physical efforts and skills needed to do the same by hand.

CAD/CAM has pretty much eliminated all the previously existing constraints and filtering processes that guarded the secret passageway to the repository where “COOL” was hidden.

Since the “COOL” is so easily accessible now… why would any seeker of COOL bother with setting up a blank manufacturing facility on the front end… or a glassing shop on the back end. Especially when having a good business and it being profitable is really the furthest thing from his mind. In fact these things are almost evil, as we have seen on Swaylocks, big business and profit are often negative words.

When only COOL is the goal, a newbie shaper or old legend for that matter, needs nothing more then a small space to scrub off the tool tracks from the shaping machine. And if he doesn’t want to bother with that, and doesn’t set too high of standards, he can easily find a dozen ghost shapers to finish them off for him. Why complicate things with actually making a business and earning any profits beyond hand to mouth needs.

Making blanks would be like foreplay and glassing them would be like developing and sustaining a loving relationship… Why bother… when all along the only goal was Orgasm (as in being Cool)! Everything else, would just be a bunch of extraneous, troublesome and useless activity. That is why it is rarely seen in the surf industry. And outsourcing is the primary business model.

Clark understood surfers well and he did everything he could to cater to this mentality and was successful beyond measure because he didn’t what to be “cool” also. Rather he wanted to be both profitable and see a really cool craft survive.

There are of course, other factors that favor outsourcing, like the difficulty in herding cats. Having too many cats under one roof may be beyond anyone’s ability to manage. Which is why offshore production is also popular. Fewer cats, more dogs. And I say that with utmost respect for those faithful workers, even though it doesn’t sound like it.

SNIP.

SS

85
Quote:
Quote:

Clark understood surfers well and he did everything he could to cater to this mentality and was successful beyond measure because he didn’t what to be “cool” also. Rather he wanted to be both profitable and see a really cool craft survive.

You mean he treated it like a JOB? Perish the thought my brother. That would mean being there every damn day and sweating over things he didn’t really want to do all the time? No way! You can’t be serious? What a horrible way to go through life…

86

Funny… when you say it like that, it does sound like a pain…!

I’m going surfing.

No sense being miserable and working all the time! Oh, yeah, that money I owe you will just have to wait. And cause… I HAVE TO go surfing, can you watch my kids for me? My wife’s at work… and I can’t afford a sitter.

87

Too funny…the both of you. But sadly true. My reality to return to my passion was quickly dampened by how much it has changed as BB so eloquently stated above.

So what do I do? On the one hand I agree that it makes sense to puts my developed models on programs (like everyone else) so I’m not burning a 56 yr. old body unecessarily truing post Clark blanks. That allows me to use my small budget of energy on refining or tweaking something new as well as having fun painting them before I put my glasser outfit on. I’m even having some modest fun applying myself as a polisher (heaven forbid).

Am I crazy? Probably. But I still enjoy it nonetheless.

I don’t think making $ is or should be a taboo subject on Sway’s. I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth like so many SB acquaintances that I have grown up around. Dad didn’t start the “Motel 6” or “McDonald’s”, Dad wasn’t a railroad tycoon…You know the rest…I owe, I owe so off to w…

I don’t need 500 accounts, I just need a few good ones that pay me when they sell my boards. I never enjoyed having 1 out of 8 go out of business stiffing me with an outstanding balance. I keep getting direct customers that want 100% handshaped and signed to them with inscriptions in the foam. This comforts me. There’s still some soul around, even if endangered. I think it is irnonic that CNC has us competing with er, ‘deadshapers’?!!

The guys are saying some things that are true that are likely to ruffle some feathers. “Surfers are lazy”. Harsh? Oh c’mon all you Peter Pan’s, you know who you are. I’d rather be surfing too, but that will have to be an ideology that stays on your license plate. If I was 15 I could afford to live it…no mortgage or kid back then.

Somehow I get the feeling that BB still handshapes some. Am I right? I hope so. I feel a lot of pressure to morph a bit into the CNC shaper that Bill describes while maintaining the purist side too.

Does that make me Dr Jeckyl & Mr Hyde?

Which is which?

88

Shapers are lazy???

I built a 1,000 EPS blanks after the Clark Shut down. It cost me $28.00 per unit to produce.

Manufacturing, Material, Basswood Stringers, Glue. Plus I milled all the stringer myself with a woodshop that was set up for making surfboards equiped with edge sanders for template and rocker sticks. I used 2.0 EPS which requires spackle after shaping. No one wants to spackle so unless your foam is Austin or Marko no one wants it. Marko foam is really good however so I don’t blame the shaping public. Anyway I’ve sold about 300 for $25.00 each. That’s a $3.00 negative per unit. I made a bad mistake such is life. I’ve made a lot of good choices that out weight my losses. Live and learn. The boards are so light and strong mostly because of the stringers. I will move my operation into a scaled down operation. So I have about 700 blanks to get rid of. I’am torn with getting a dumpster and throw them out or store them? Some say offer them to the shaping public for $15.00? Maybe your right Shapers are lazy? Spackle? Too hard! Get the dumpster.

In one of my earlier post I commented on how much more EPS Blanks where than PU. The PU takes way more effort to produce. Maybe after all the low cost PU producers are out of the picture the PU Blanks will increase in price making them pretty much the same as EPS?

89
Quote:
Too funny..the both of you.

Aloha Bruce

Steve and I go wayyy back. We can both get a bit cynical at times. Steve always cracks me up!

But sadly true. My reality to return to my passion was quickly dampened by how much it has changed as BB so eloquently stated above.

So what do I do? On the one hand I agree that it makes sense to puts my developed models on programs (like everyone else) so I’m not burning a 56 yr. old body unecessarily truing post Clark blanks. That allows me to use my small budget of energy on refining or tweaking something new as well as having fun painting them before I put my glasser outfit on. I’m even having some modest fun applying myself as a polisher (heaven forbid).

Am I crazy? Probably. But I still enjoy it nonetheless.

I don’t think making $ is or should be a taboo subject on Sway’s. I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth like so many SB acquaintances that I have grown up around. Dad didn’t start the “Motel 6” or “McDonald’s”. You know the rest…I owe, I owe so off to w…

I don’t need 500 accounts, I just need a few good ones that pay me when they sell my boards. I never enjoyed having 1 out of 8 go out of business stiffing me with an outstanding balance. I keep getting direct customers that want 100% handshaped and signed to them with inscriptions in the foam. This comforts me. There’s still some soul around, even if endangered. I think it is irnonic that CNC has us competing with er, ‘deadshapers’?!!

That’s funny! In the digital shaping world one can apparently live forever. Kind of cool really. Does this mean one’s competition never goes away… Yikes!

The guys are saying some things that are true that are likely to ruffle some feathers. “Surfers are lazy”. Harsh? Oh c’mon all you Peter Pan’s, you know who you are. I’d rather be surfing too, but that will have to be an ideology that stays on your license plate. If I was 15 I could afford to live it…no mortgage or kid back then.

Sometimes we have to take a serious look at who we are as a group. There are exceptions for sure but I think we all understand the drug that is surfing and how it interferes with work and work ethic. I am not trying to judge anyone in particular and I am a master of goofing off myself. But I also know how to work hard and work smart so that I can afford to do my own goofing off and not try to squeeze my particular lifestyle out of someone else’s good will. For too many surfers the surfing drug is too powerful and it destroys their self control such that they wind up milking out their particular lifestyle on the back of… and at the expense of… others. Sometimes I think the intense desire for fame in surfing is often driven by a much greater need to, not have to work, rather then the more noble need to achieve something significant and share it with others… which is really how fame should be acquired and handed out.

Somehow I get the feeling that BB still handshapes some. Am I right? I hope so.

You are exactly right. I don’t currently, nor never have used shaping machines, profilers, etc. As I have stated many times. I have no problem with those who do, and might some day myself. But I do think their should be some agreed industry standard or term used to define what a true “hand shaped” board really is. Not because they are necessarily better, but because they represent a particularly unique method and category of shaping. How joe public appreciates this is another issue. Hopefully joe will understand that hand shaping doesn’t come easy nor easily lend itself to mass production and therefore his board should be considered a unique and highly specialized “one off” design. But without some media support behind this it will very hard for joe to know, understand and then value this particular “Hand Shaped” item properly. It will take a strong underground viral marketing push to get joe to understand. But it can be done.

On the other hand simply because a board is “hand shaped” doesn’t guarantee it will surf well or will even be shaped in a quality fashion. But good or bad, it will still be a unique “one off” piece of work.

I feel a lot of pressure to morph a bit into the CNC shaper that Bill describes while maintaining the purist side too.

Do what you need to do and do it well. Be straight up with your customers and be honest about what they are getting. The customers will let you know what direction is appropriate for you and them.

Does that make me Dr Jeckyl & Mr Hyde?

Which is which?

90
Quote:
Shapers are lazy???

Aloha surfding

Actually I said Surfers not Shapers. But their may be little difference in the end.

I think the "lazy"condition comes more from surfing. It is a unique drug, the getting more of which, feels great! Problem is, work really gets in the way of access to more of the drug. Therefore… Surfers often tend to be a bit slim on responsibilities and work ethics.

Your story below, indicates you are an exception to the rule. My heart breaks for you. Big ideas often require big risks. But those who take risks like this do eventually win. Be noble, do what you have to do clean house and move on. The next idea may be the big winner. Don’t dwadle too long on this one and miss out on the next one.

"When one door closes, another opens. But we often look so regretfully upon

the closed door that we don’t see the one that has opened for us."

  • Alexander Graham Bell

I built a 1,000 EPS blanks after the Clark Shut down. It cost me $28.00 per unit to produce.

Manufacturing, Material, Basswood Stringers, Glue. Plus I milled all the stringer myself with a woodshop that was set up for making surfboards equiped with edge sanders for template and rocker sticks. I used 2.0 EPS which requires spackle after shaping. No one wants to spackle so unless your foam is Austin or Marko no one wants it. Marko foam is really good however so I don’t blame the shaping public. Anyway I’ve sold about 300 for $25.00 each. That’s a $3.00 negative per unit. I made a bad mistake such is life. I’ve made a lot of good choices that out weight my losses. Live and learn. The boards are so light and strong mostly because of the stringers. I will move my operation into a scaled down operation. So I have about 700 blanks to get rid of. I’am torn with getting a dumpster and throw them out or store them? Some say offer them to the shaping public for $15.00? Maybe your right Shapers are lazy? Spackle? Too hard! Get the dumpster.

In one of my earlier post I commented on how much more EPS Blanks where than PU. The PU takes way more effort to produce. Maybe after all the low cost PU producers are out of the picture the PU Blanks will increase in price making them pretty much the same as EPS?

91

Wow.

Lotsa stuff here.

Gee, I have spackel, I also wouldn’t freak out to squeegeeing an epoxy/q cell coat and scuff sanding. I’ll take some off of the ‘black-listed’ foam no one wants…is this what it has come to? No wonder everything is going offshore.

How may prima donnas does it take to equal one handshaper? I say send the lemmings over the cliff!

Bill’s comment about handshaping and “one off’s” is spot on. Back in the days of the sailboard gold rush (80’s) we were building hulls only for $650 to $1,000 on a daily basis…however, those one off’s were expected to resemble a piece that was soooooo perfect that it could have a mold made from it. I’m surprised I still have hair after that.

I make no pretense to any customer seeking my boards, and many of them are supportive and have no qualms in accepting a model that represents years and years of developing to become an accepted and proven design. However, OTOH, if someone comes to me and wants a REAL custom that is very specific to their needs, they know that I am very happy to build them that is exclusively for them. After all, isn’t that custom by the very definition of it?

To say that I am looking at CNC to save me time and energy doesn’t nor need imply a sell out. After all, I’m one guy doing an underground operation that will produce a very limited number of customs this year. The satisfaction in that is I know my customers, and I get direct feedback from their use of the product. That is a very personal relationship that they desire or they would not have sought me out in the first place.

It would be extremely easy to complicate my life if i desired, and it is very challenging to simplify oone’s life when it gets cluttered. Being somewhat of a semi-minimalist, I tend to get a rush from being able to maximize with the minimum. This means that I am constantly seeking the most efficient way to do what I do for the least amount of cost. This has nothing to do with less quality. It has to do with working smart versus working hard. In surfboards, there is enough hard work as it is. That is why I put forth ideas to Surfding about sanding the hotcoats with inflatable drums on a CNC. My supposition is that if registration and the original program is on hand, then this should be possible. The bi question mark in my mind is how exacting the registration is, as I recall when Yater, Wayne Rich, Steve Brom, mysefl and a few other were in the shaping hut down from Beatty’s glass factory, machined blanks showed up that were off-center from one side to the other. Maybe this is no longer a problem, but it was very apparent that registration was a primary and fundamenta requirement back then.

Curiously enough my dad was a machinist and he gave AM some insight on early day machining of surfboards. We had a machine shop in downtown SB, and a CNC milling machine downstairs in the basement at home. Guess if I’d had more insight, I would have been an early CNC shaper…well except for Bahne and Weber and all those guys that didn’t talk about shaping machines 4 decades ago.

I guess a question that pops up here is where does handshaping stop and machining start?

Do I need to go find my own tree and chop it down to qualify as a handshaper?

Does providing my rocker profiles to a blank company disqualify me as a handshaper and put me into the machined category. Are you counting that I cut the rocker template and that says I machined part of the process?

Isn’t a planer, a machine?

Is an adz, drawknife, block plane, a (hand) machine or just a tool?

What is the very definition of machine vs. tool?

Is the only tool…me?

92

…BB, regarding average Joe understanding and bringing some add value to the handshaping vs the machine is very difficult because almost all the marketing is working for the machine

I remember about 12 years ago or so some surfer from S America makes a partnership with Future fins and the guy blahbling at me about what incredible were those fins and the tech involved, aero space tech!!, NASA tech!!!, etc

the guy believed that they had discovered the gunpowder

other stuff that I see in periodically (in several Countries) is with the machine anyone is a shaper

and some have lots of money

so start a company sell boards, then 5 years or so later they see that there s not enough money in surfboards, etc

but in the meantime they filled SMALL local markets with not so functional shapes (thousands of them)

keeping the surfers in a non evolution way, killing the real shapers (because no matter if the boards are not so good, cause its thousands to hit small towns in 5 years)

etc

93

Dead if you want some EPS I’ll take care of you!

SD

94

Hey…the deal is done…thank god for PM’s on Sway’s. I have NO problem with sealing and scuf sanding. Whatta bunch of wimps! Look at my biceps! Arnie would be proud!!

Now, I just saw another thread with everyone spreading horror stories freaking out about to vent or not to vent.

In that thread I replied that throughout the 80’s I never vented once (well, except to maybe some shoulder hopper at Rincon). All that foam was hotwired 1.5 or lighter. The surfboards were light colors the sailboards anything and everything…no delams, and no blow ups…even in cargo holds.

Oh, to spackle or not to spackle? The hard lines paint great with spackle but is the adhesion okay compared to epoxy/balloon slurry and scuffing…? All my 80’s stuff was done with the slurry and scuffing.

95

i agree they are a bunch or wimps the only reason pu foam is still used is anyone can shape it it is cheap raw material is half of eps or epp foam, and the boards dont last they ding and break easy

which is good for the manufacture but not for the consumer…and sooner or later all the pu foam sharpers will die from cancer

i only shape polypropylene foam. yes it is a little harder to shape like eps but at leased i am not going to die from it.

like all the sharpers that i have been going to paddle out for,it is 100% environmentally friendly no v.o.c. it wont deck ding, you can glass it with polyester or epoxy and it is 25% lighter than pu foam, they surf better (better flex) and last 3 time longer than pu or eps foam boards to me its a no brainier but you don’t need a brain to surf or drive a car (just trying to make a point)

96

…thought I heard (read) someone mention that Walker’s was polypro…maybe someone can clarify that for us.

I shape everything that helps pay my mortgage. Rather than worrying about dying from 40 years of shaping Clark Foam, I think about other things…like design.

Somwhere read “worrying works…99% of the things I worry about never happen”.

97

As clarification, Walker’s formulas were all polyurethane however he used a significantly different polyol in his formulation then did Clark.

98

NO WALKER IS PU FOAM TDI BASE, AND I DON’T WORRY ABOUT DYING FROM SHAPING FOAM, BECAUSE I ONLY SHAPE POLYPROPYLENE FOAM

99

LT…thanks for the clarification…and you would certainly know. BTW thanks for making Walker available thru the Ice 9 “Mowses” Formula…I’m loving shaping the foam and just had a rider come back from 3 wks in Bali riding a 2 day 6’5" shorty I made for him from your Mowses 6’6"HPS before he left. He surfed the crap out of it and he not only loved the ride but the board came back in excellent condition.

It turned out very light with the typical 4/4 single 4 speed finish and he is really impressed as am I.

Thanks again…can’t wait to see the heavier Feather formula in Moses for funshapes and longboards.

100

Okay, so ask you shall receive…Stu from Ice 9 just dropped blanks and showed me the new Mowses Featherweight Formula in a longboard blank that Terry Martin skinned…the foam is unbelieveable! Such the fine cell structure…beautiful stuff. This will make for terrific classic longboards or anyone wanting strength in the core. It is said to shape just like the lighter Mowses… which is a dream.

If you haven’t tried it you are missing it big time.

Good foam is good foam, and I don’t care what the label is…if it’s good, USE IT!