focus

Okay back to surfbroading stuff…

seems we’re in this constant pursuit in everything we do of making things much more complicated than needed without really stepping back to evaluate whether the effort justifies the result.

Having said that let me throw out this question for the experts to over analyze with their comments…

assuming that you’re starting with a base of a stringerless well constructed(molded) EPS core in the 2lb density range.

What are the differences in the following approaches in regards to a skinned or unskinned constructed surfcraft.

For each of the line items explainations should be just limited to the following catagories

A) Pros?

B) Cons?

C) What problem is it solving?

D) Does the materials expense justify the result?

E) Does the physical effort justify the result?

  1. Inset 1/8" wood perimeter rails nothing else

  2. #1 with a PU exterior band

  3. #1 with high density Corecel/Divinycel exterier rail band

  4. solid wooden perimeter perimeter rail band

  5. just a high density perimeter rail band

  6. carbon tape rail band

  7. just extra standard glass band

  8. weird cut patterned standard glass rail lap

finally as you compare all these extra labor intensive tasks, in the end, again of you had a well constucted(possibly molded) 2lb density EPS blank with a 1/8" basswood stringer glassed with s-cloth or warp fiberglass in epoxy, what percent improvement in the capability of the final product to SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVE the surfing experience of a non-pro or non-surfbum end user is produced using the additional techniques above that could not also be obtained by shear practice time with something made without all the extra effort inducing optional features mentioned above?

It’s a simple expense/effort versus payback question using the exact same analytical structure I’m currently involved in trying to determine if my corporation should invest in something costing 5-10 million dollars over the lifetime of the contract for something each company is touting as much better than what we have today…

beyond a well designed shape including fins using a strong light core glassed strong with epoxy, what does all the rest get the end user? Or is it like 70% of the stuff knocking at my door for an audience, a solution looking for a problem to solve…

I think if everyone can be civil and keep their answers within scope and just in the realm of specifically answering questions A-D for any of the option your are most experienced at answering then we might have chance of sorting through the claims and get some focus on what all this stuff being tossed at us here might really mean…

well at least for me I guess…

As someone who doesn’t yet quite get it I look forward to the responses from the experts in the house…

And mahalo for your time and effort in advance…

yeah it prolly mostly bull

its the surfer and the wave

its a relationship that can only be truly consumated when you are outside your comfort zone

wether it be surfing alone in cold or sharky waters or bigger then what your used to personaly

anything that is a challenge

at the end of the day if its really good surf then who cares

you make do with what you have under your feet

when you recall the session your thinking about the day and waves or the mates your with, not wether your boards got carbon rails or triple fangle whatever

when you think of the board

you think yeah that one worked well that day

i can say that for every board ive built

they all had a couple of great days that were truly magic

this i cuz of

no crowd

great waves

fitness

and good attitude

from my limited experience

vents suck

water intrusion sucks

delams suck

dents suck

how about 3 times 6oz over a 2 pound eps

glass ons

or a firewire type board with double 6 oz and no vent

basically

its gotta be reasonably light

5 to 6 pounds

completley waterproof skins and core

dent proof

no vents

wont delam

wont snap

take no more then 7 hours to build

and be able to fetch around 800$ direct from manufacturer

Quote:

Okay back to surfbroading stuff…

seems we’re in this constant pursuit in everything we do of making things much more complicated than needed without really stepping back to evaluate whether the effort justifies the result.

Having said that let me throw out this question for the experts to over analyze with their comments…

assuming that you’re starting with a base of a stringerless well constructed(molded) EPS core in the 2lb density range.

What are the differences in the following approaches in regards to a skinned or unskinned constructed surfcraft.

For each of the line items explainations should be just limited to the following catagories

A) Pros?

B) Cons?

C) What problem is it solving?

D) Does the materials expense justify the result?

E) Does the physical effort justify the result?

  1. Inset 1/8" wood perimeter rails nothing else

  2. #1 with a PU exterior band

  3. #1 with high density Corecel/Divinycel exterier rail band

  4. solid wooden perimeter perimeter rail band

  5. just a high density perimeter rail band

  6. carbon tape rail band

  7. just extra standard glass band

  8. weird cut patterned standard glass rail lap

finally as you compare all these extra labor intensive tasks, in the end, again of you had a well constucted(possibly molded) 2lb density EPS blank with a 1/8" basswood stringer glassed with s-cloth or warp fiberglass in epoxy, what percent improvement in the capability of the final product to SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVE the surfing experience of a non-pro or non-surfbum end user is produced using the additional techniques above that could not also be obtained by shear practice time with something made without all the extra effort inducing optional features mentioned above?

It’s a simple expense/effort versus payback question using the exact same analytical structure I’m currently involved in trying to determine if my corporation should invest in something costing 5-10 million dollars over the lifetime of the contract for something each company is touting as much better than what we have today…

beyond a well designed shape including fins using a strong light core glassed strong with epoxy, what does all the rest get the end user? Or is it like 70% of the stuff knocking at my door for an audience, a solution looking for a problem to solve…

I think if everyone can be civil and keep their answers within scope and just in the realm of specifically answering questions A-D for any of the option your are most experienced at answering then we might have chance of sorting through the claims and get some focus on what all this stuff being tossed at us here might really mean…

well at least for me I guess…

As someone who doesn’t yet quite get it I look forward to the responses from the experts in the house…

And mahalo for your time and effort in advance…

My answer: No result worth it, UNLESS… you’re trying to sell something to the gullible. Then, it could pay off, for a while, at least.

  1. Inset 1/8" wood perimeter rails nothing else

a. some snap resistance and if board is glassed soft/flexy, some rail rebound. If board is stiff then minimal benefit.

  1. #1 with a PU exterior band

similar to ‘a’ and some rail dent resistance, water suckage

  1. #1 with high density Corecel/Divinycel exterier rail band

same as a, with a dent resistant and waterproof rail (Ive had two deep cracks/dents on my fav for months now and havent fixed them, not worried); shaping dust may be more toxic.

  1. solid wooden perimeter perimeter rail band

stiffer/rebound rail if rest of board is soft; heavier; potential for rot depending on wood

  1. just a high density perimeter rail band

i wouldnt do this, wasted effort; better off using 1-4

  1. carbon tape rail band

stiffer brittle rail laminate that can still shatter on impact, depends on core; expensive

  1. just extra standard glass band

rail impact resistance, strength; bit heavier; economical; tricky to do

  1. weird cut patterned standard glass rail lap

too weird, even for me :slight_smile:

You forgot to ask about rail channels.

In the end, when all board factors are considered, including ease of build, its pretty hard to beat tightly fused surfboard specific #2, with good epoxy laminate. Im not saying its top shelf, just really good all around.

Robust rails get you better reliability and rail strength; compsand better strength to weight, higher potential for engineered flex and a variety of ways to do it, usually requirering lots more work effort.

Thanks Dave!

Just what I was looking for

too bad most of the tome here we forget to speak in such simple language.

there’s a bottom line to every great idea

some are more difficult to get to than others

sorry about those stretch-like deck channels

also forgot about those old blue hawaii surf inserted glass rope rails from the 80’s too.

on a side note I just found 30 plus years of old surfer and surfing mags in pristine shape we had buried away from the early seventies. Pretty amazing stuff that was being done back when some of the folks here were still in diapers…I’ll scan and post some of the old and recently recycled ideas here for review… The pictures are amazing

Sure thing B, was trying to focus.

While its important, Im not trippin on the rail mat’l as much.

It seems that meshing the board design to the fin setup gets me further.

Altho I prefer peace of mind materials like cc and cedar.

My fav board has cc rails/deck and marko core with center stringer.

I went thru a dozen or more fin setups and when I switched to epoxy/glass it just blew up. Added a bit more rail edge around the tail that was missing earlier as well.

Another feature are the thinner rails, that seems to make the board real special. The rocker is quite stagey. Five is just rediculous.

So as you know, while its easy to lose focus thinking about materials, good design is still paramount. Board co’s are trying to seperate themselves and using tech is a good way of doing it. So it works, both in perf and mrktg.

I have the Dec 79, date when I started surfing, issue of Surfer in pristine condition. If I remember, it has a good article about future fins, including hydrofoils, and stuff about concaves and a bunch of other forward stuff. Might snap a shot and post it.

Light (EPS), durable (epoxy), thin (compsand). My needs are simple. My level of surfing at my age just doesn’t need exotic rail material. I don’t mind the extra build time, but I haven’t fully explored the basic foam construct, and my biological clock is ticking[code]