What specific things do you guys do to make a board that surfs as well from a forward position as it does from the tail? (i.e. Do you pull your outline back on the blank to get a lower entry rocker and more tail rocker as well as moving the thickness up? Move up the widepoint? Use forward vee?) I don’t mean a noserider here as I’m thinking about boards in the 6’6" to 7’6" range. Thanks
Allllright, a design question! There are a million answers to this question, so I’ll start. These are all real general so you might get some conflicting ideas. First off, the board will not turn the same from both spots, but you can make them turn well from both spots. Single fins tend to work a little better than thrusters but the 2+1’s can solve some problems too. Move the wide point up ahead of middle 3 inches minimum. Use a more parallel outline (eggy). Lower entry rocker especially but the tail rocker for a single should be around 1.5 inches. By putting on v’s or concaves you start to shorten the sweetspot so I’d stay away from those on boards longer than 7 feet. A softer rail will smooth things out, especially in the middle. For a board that turns especially good from the middle check out Liddlesurfboards.com. Also check the Resources (search: Paul Gross and he has a great how-to for shaping a hull). Hulls don’t turn that well from the tail (although after a while you can control the spin into a drifty turn that’s pretty fun), but if you add the “runners” shown on Liddle’s boards, they will pivot turn pretty well. If you try to shape a hull, you should try and find one to study 'cause they are fairly complex. The blended curves are what makes them work and also what makes them look so elegantly simple. I imagine a fish would also fit the bill although I’ve never ridden one over 6 feet long.
I would use a reversed vee bottom.
For surfing a forward position I recommend using a single fin like a 9" Stage 4. These below were made by Mr. Paul Gross. This fin will generate a lot of power while you initiate nice, wide turns. As Lee said, not a whole lot of tail rocker: 1" to 2" on a 7 ft board. If there is too much tail lift, the narrow nature of the fin starts to slide out on turns. 
I agree with Lee… In general: the boards mass needs to be moved forward. Soft, thinner rails, low, smooth rocker, etc. The basic (but deceptively sophisticated) idea is to achieve a BALANCE between the front and back... the forward bottom/rails and the hold of the tail and (reduced area) fin... in the front by softening the bottom/rails and making the template wider in the nose. In such designs, the ABSCENCE of flex is counterproductive to both fin and board. Reduction of the length brings "accelerator and brakes" closer together, encouraging a mid-point for handling. If all design elements of board and fin are functioning in harmony, a minimum of rider effort is necessary while surfing. Hulls tend to seek out a waves natural lines of energy, then accelerate into and follow them. Access to longer, walled-up, faster (uninterrupted) waves has a trememdous influence on the degree of success and satisfaction received from a displacement hull design. Dale
Anyone care to discuss another forward riding shape, the 70’s Lopez mini gun? Are there any similarities between these shapes and displacement hulls? Do they work in similar conditions.
Transitional displacement hulls usually draw higher lines across a wall and up into the pocket. Hard downrailed, flat-bottomed boards (as many of the 1970`s mini guns) want to run down low across the base of the wave face. The more hollow the waves, the more obvious these contrasting characteristics become. For some good insight on this subject, see the latest issue of TSJ, in an article by Bob McTavish.
Comparing a Lopez to a displacement hull would be like comparing apples and oranges. Upon first look the Lopez was way more streamlined in outline as compared to the rounded template of a hull. The Lopez bottom was basically flat to vee, with the fin set closer to the tail than a hull, which relies on convex and flats, fin set way forward. You could probably surf from different parts of a Lopez, forward and tail, as it seems a hull is designed to be surfed more forward. The shapes reflect the type of waves they were designed for, the Lopez (Ala Moana,Pipe,Indo) and the hull for point breaks like Malibu and Rincon.
great article about rails with mctavish. when he talks about symmetrical rails…does it mean the deck and bottom rail transitions are very close in shape? any good articles on rails, or websites??this is fascinating,progression is endless
Yep, you need power to drive those pinnie downrailers and they seemed to stall out comming off the top or cutting back. The most even mid and tail turner I’ve ever ridden was a Larry Mabile 7’2" with flat rocker, pinched rails but flat deck with a thruster set up. You put your back foot near the cluster and it squirted nicely, and you could pump up some pretty good speed. If you stood in the middle it would crank out some nice drawn out lines (but not with the accelertion of a hull). The bottom was more Frye than Liddle but it had a kick in the tail that let the cluster work…It worked in all kinds of surf as long as it was head high or less. Its sitting in my garage if anyone wants some measurements…
Yes, please… http://www.hollowsurfboards.com
Nose rocker-4" tail-1" length-7’5" width-22&1/2" thickness-3&1/8" nose-18&3/8" tail-15&1/8" fin-9"g4 flex(like ones ghunt posted) fin set at-13&11/16" rails-Blade thin bottom-Liddle Displacement hull.A full ripper!(tail feathers my ass)
If you all recall the now famous sessions of MR and Shaun at Off the Wall, Shaun would sweep into the bottom on the tail and step forward with his front foot over the break in the nose rocker. He used the nose rocker the same way we use the tail rocker, the full lenght of the rail was in the water, the fin anchoring the tail. As he leaned into the face of the wave, the curve under foot would force him high in the tube and allow him to face turn as if he was on the tail. A surfboard is not just a tail and fins as most youngsters would think, but a complete package, that is if it is designed to be more that a hopper/air board. Unfortunately it is the older surfer that understands this the best.
Jim, Do you usually find it necesary to adjust (I mean with the planer, not by ordering a different rocker)the rocker in most or every blank in order to remove the little breaks in the rocker? Almost every experienced shaper I,ve talked to or watched makes this seem like a crucial part of their designs. I’ll be damned if I can even see the breaks or tweaks that they’re talking about most of the time. Wouldn’t these adjustments change the thickness flow in the blank, especially when using a close to shape blank, possibly doing more harm than good? Set me straight and thanks for all the input in this thread.
There will be breaks in the rocker that you want to stay put, not drastic kinks but increased curve area. After I have skinned the bottom to thickness, I then go after what I don’t like in the bottom curves, most of the time, ahead of center is an abundance of thickness in the foil, I like to go after it first at the rail line and then move it to the center. I prefer to keep the foil and thickness at or behind center, this is where we stand and it lightens up the front portion of the board, which is moving around the most. I always get a good laugh at youngsters who tell me, with glass ons the tail of their board is too heavy. Isn’t the tail remaining nearly stationary, with the rest of the board moving around it?
Outline: 16.375N X 21.25 (up 1.5) X 14.875T X 3; 5.75 square tailblock. Outline is similar to my edge board but a lot more curve in tail. Rocker: 4.75N, 2.75T. Rocker breaks 1 foot either side of center but smooth curve throughout Contour: “hull depth” stinger to apex of rail: .75N, 1.25 center, .75T. V starts 10" behind center and carries through tail, deepest just in front of sidebites. Fins; glass-ons that whistle while you surf measured from base trailing edge…stabilizer up 3.5 from tailblock, sidebites up 11.5, .25 toe Rails are small round but not pinched to knife, resin bead down behind fins. Larry was working for Gordon and Smith when he shaped this about 15-20 years ago…Jeeze am I that old? Great all around small wave stick…