front foot ,back foot?

ok looking for some thoughts on the front footed surfer versus the back footed surfer…over the years ive had alot of guys come in and basically pidgeon hole them selves into a catagory ,of either front ,foot back foot or in between , not really understanding what the difference was i just shaped the same sort of boards for everyone.the ones that i liked, i would consider myself a little more back foot, so anyway the back foot guys loved them ,the inbetweeners sorta ummed and ahhed then liked them after a few more surfs ,the front foots hated them, i would sit with older shapers down the beach as they watched their team riders ,i would hear them rattle off comments ,yep hes front foot ,yep hes back foot…i would ask questions but never get satisfying answers…so it remained a mystery for a while… then as designs changed over the years and different generations of surfers emerged with new styles along with new styles of equipment, i started to notice that guys my own age would get on my boards and love em ,but younger guys didnt seem that impressed first up ,plus older guys werent that excited either,what the hell was it??? i always shaped the sort of boards i would ride my self stands to reason if they work for me theyll work for others.so as new trends emerged i would try it um and ah then go back to what i liked ,so i get this grom who rips and put him on my style of boards and after about 6 boards or so, there real fine tuned,in a pack of rippers he stands out of the pack ,so they swap boards the other rippers didnt like his boards ,he didnt like there boards, ok he comes my theory … the sort of boards we learn on and develop our style on will determin our tastes and likes in boards for the rest of our surfing career ,if we hop on a board that is way to different from what were used to we wont like it, back foot ,front foot question still remains , next theory … the board determins the riders style,if you surf a board for front foot ,the only way you can surf it well is on the front foot more,same ,if a board designed for back foot, to get the best out of it you need to surf off the back foot. so i start to test this theory by turning front foot surfers into back foot surfers ,by giving them boards close to what there riding in there front footed style then slowly weaning them onto the back foot over 3 or 4 boards …to the point that when they rode a board like what they once loved ,it seemed foreign to them … next 2 theorys combined … the flatest part of your board is the fastest part of your board and you tend to linger in the spot that gives you the most speed ,a back foot guy feeds his back foot through a top turn and out the other side coz hes on a flater tailed board that gives more drive and speed off the back foot ,a front foot guy even tho he initially uses a little back foot to start the top turn ,rather than pushing his back foot up into the lip, as hes halfway through the turn starts to pull his front foot down so hes on the front foot for the next bottom turn coz his board is flater in the middle and he needs his weight in the middle for speed… one noticable difference was the extra amount of spray a back foot surfer thru in comparison to the front foot guy… so after all that i concluded that it was equipment that determined style,stance and positioning rather than the surfer himself and we shouldnt be quick to catagorise ourselves into a style of surfing because its actually our boards making us surf that way… does anyone disagree with this ? or have any comments to add? last statement !!!(warning this may be offensive to some readers) i beleive the most radical performance surfing comes from initiating and completing turns off the back foot ,enabling a surfer to go harder into the pocket and drive out again and bust the back of the lip out while hes there… im curious to see where this goes ,thanks all regards BERT

Short Thrusters=back foot with wide low stance…Longbooards=front foot (rail turns.classic style…fade and crank)upright stance.Phil Edwards ruled on this deal and Joel ain’t too shabby.My humble opinion.

Bert, enjoyed readying your theories, but am sad to say i’m not too experienced in front foot/back foot discrimination. But i do have one question: whats the difference in board thickness, rocker and foil for a front foot board compared to a backfoot board? common sense would tell me thickness and foil pushed a little farther back for a back footer, and exit rocker may be a little flatter as well? thanks;

I’d like the names of two world class surfers, one typical back foot and one typical front footer, just to be sure what you’re talking about here Bert?

…Bert’s right,people get piegon holed into thinking that they are one footed or the other. …Look at the way someone surfs that says this(I’m a back foonted serfor)…see what I mean.Herb

backfoot surfer: Sunny Garcia both/front and back: Kelly Slater not knowledgable about current front foot surfers but: past front foot surfer: Shaun Thomson

from the present,frontfooter…Todd Morcom…I don’t know him personally but from the pics I’ve seen he looks like a prodom.fronty.Herb

What would you call Occy?

MARK! http://www.feraldave.com

Good question about the Occ – front foot or back foot? Definitely a rail surfer – he uses the area of the board inbetween the two feet. But he does some amazing back foot drives, pushing the tail of the board all over the place. I also remember seeing photos of him doing backhand bottom turns with the front leg nearly straight – evidence of his flexing his front quad. Occ’s mastery lies in his using the entire rail of the modern surfboard. This doesn’t really come down to front foot vs. back, but BOTH! Ha ha! The easy way out. Think about Curren too – both feet. I have seen him do frontside bottom turns with his back foot infront of the front fins. He is driving off of his forward rail. When he comes up to the lip, he moves his back foot over the fins and blows them out the back – back foot. Machado is more of a back foot surfer. I remember checking out his shortboards, and his back foot is just in front of the leash plug. Cool thoughts…

Hello Bert, here are my opinions (i’m in the category of receational hobbyist when it comes to surfing and board building and i don’t place myself in the back foot category) you wrote: >i started to notice that guys my own age would get on my boards and >>love em ,but younger guys didnt seem that impressed first up ,plus >older guys werent that excited either,what the hell was it??? well sort of agree but not sure how to articulate that, at age 42 i’ve developed the ability to ride a greater range of equipment than i had by age 20. but i no longer feel the need too thrash around on my 5’ 4" twinny in tiny waves (i’m not so good at that anymore either). don’t boards get longer as we get older? and i don’t think anyone would like some of my self-built or custom ordered boards except me>>>he sort of boards we learn on and develop our style on will determin our >tastes and likes in boards for the rest of our surfing career ,if we hop on > a board that is way to different from what were used to we wont like it, i once posted a long description under the “surfing on the edge” thread of how my early years of surfing was developed on twin fins in mush - i seemed to go twice as fast on a twin than when i was on a single - but that didn’t stop some fellow inhabitants of Wales, UK from doing well on singles or even finding some tubes - i therefore believe i would never have reached my prime on singles and never excelled in tubes even if given better waves and a trifin at an earlier age (despite some years in australia and cali i remain hopeless at tubes, my opinion is therefore that i was born a skate style rider but my early years probably accentuated it. (my slight build genetically rules out power surfing anyway), so i mainly disagree>>>the board determins the riders style,if you surf a board for front foot ,the >only way you can surf it well is on the front foot more,same ,if a board >designed for back foot, to get the best out of it you need to surf off the back foot. yes, my magical mini tank lends itself to back foot riding - at times i completely lift the nose out of the water and reposition it somewhere else. (3 fins on this board, back fin is bigger than front) - a pt break board my (current) post modern blob-fish twin fin cannot be ridden successfully from the tail - it seems some ppl do not like twin fins at all, so they would be back foot surfers i expect. this is my favourite board for ugly, textured SF metro beach break that is no more than head ht i really like my my non-standard hybrid short board tho - i’m in my element when i ride this flatter/skate style for the long walled sections ie pressure more even between front and back, although i will step on the tail to get around a short section of white water onto a bowly tapering shoulder - 3 small future F4 all the same size - another pt break board>>>the flatest part of your board is the fastest part of your board and you tend > to linger in the spot that gives you the most speed ,a back foot guy feeds his back foot through a top turn and out the other side coz hes on a flater >tailed board that gives more drive and speed off the back foot ,a front foot guy even tho he initially uses a little back foot to start the top turn ,rather >than pushing his back foot up into the lip, as hes halfway through the >turn starts to pull his front foot down so hes on the front foot for the next >bottom turn coz his board is flater in the middle and he needs his weight > in the middle for speed my front oriented hybrid doesn’t have much rocker in the tail and has reduced rocker throughout compared to a hi-performance shortboard (whatever hp shortboard means - i think some ppl call the more conventional board a potato chip design - i went thru a phase of riding them in my 30s), my rear footed mini tank however has biggest rocker curve in the rear end of the board, so i don’t think its as simple as that! PS isn’t every aesthetically styled surfer a back foot rider with overall more weight spent on the rear than front foot? - true front foot surfing looks awkward and is for intermediates, so would you think that someone you know as a good front foot rider is really someone who has more even distribution of weight?

I believe after watching the front foot approach…that these people are deluding themselvs and are standing switch foot…they are weighting left foot in front…put it in the back,weight the back foot and walk about to appropriate trim…Flat land skate board = front foot orienation…Snow board experts …front foot orientation… except down hiil powder snowboarding… the popularity of front foot approach has led to 'new manuvers" like tail slides,levering tail free only to reengage by backweighting…ambrose… learning to ride the boards you ride is logical

i suppose in short what i think is true …that as board design changes ,it also changes the styles of the next generation of surfers,… that whatever board you ride ,as ambrose alluded to ,your style has to adapt to the board . certain styles of boards lend them selves to more radical surfing… a typical backfoot board gives the impression of more power a typical frontfoot board gives a lighter tailed more slipery look to the surfer another observation ive made is where you focus your energy , when you watch slow mo video you really start to notice the difference… and that is where the surfer points his head or is facing with his eyes and face,the back foot guys seem to really linger at looking at there back foot squeezing every last drop of energy into the tail of there board , whereas the front foot guys before theyve even finished there turn, have turned there face and started looking down the line ,and looking into there next move a little earlier… the back foot guys get this last second head direction change … fluffy yep i agree there i noticed the guys who favoured front foot liked a little thicker front rail so it didnt go under as they loaded the front rail in the bottom turn plus flater forward,and looser fin sets as well with way looser more more sliperry tail… so the big question is,is it really our underlying personal style that shapes our tastes in boards ? or is it our boards that shape our style ,and once branded with a style we keep getting that same type of board? …whats your opinion? regards BERT

A well designed shortboard, performance hybrid, or performance LB can provide surfers of any skill level the opportunity to perform “front footed” and “back footed” maneuvers. Designs which facilitate both have an infinite sweet spot - every place a surfer may chose to place himself or find himself on such a design - can yield a quality maneuver. We can certainly optimize front or back foot “technique” by emphasizing design elements that will maximize performance for one or the other technique, but why not focus our design resources to optimize both ! The reference to Occy’s use of the entire rail of the surfboard is an outstanding example of how functional a “two or both footed” surfboard can be. A surfboard capable of responding to both techniques and the ability of a surfer to respond to a wave’s demand for both types of turns yields some very impressive surfing. A surfboard that emphasizes one over the other may not be as versatile as a surfboard which emphasizes both. Working with surfers, their skill sets, the waves they prefer to ride, and the frequency with which they surf is a welcome challenge for shapers that can be met with a variety of designs. Determining what is relevant to each surfer is essential to providing them with a functional surfboard. Variation in rocker, core foil, rail foil, configuration and distribution of surface area in the template, and placement of bottom contours are elements that will determine the emphasis of front, back, or two or both foot techniques.

…what’s it to me anyway.Herb

I think that you’re right on the way people ride dependent on other board sports they may be into. I was a competitive snowboarder for years (I’ll date myself by saying I started on a Burton Backhill), up until pretty recently, and I can definitively say that the nearly 2 decades of snowboarding has drastically influenced how I surf. I get all my drive surfing from my front foot. If I try to ride friends’ boards with the foil pushed way back, I bury the rail on a lot of bottom turns, I’m guessing this is, at least in part, because I’m so front-foot oriented. I had JC shape me one of his stingrays(fish) with the foil pushed a bit more forward than normal, and it is, hands down, the best board I’ve ever ridden. I never feel like I’m swamping it when I really drive hard off the bottom, like a lot of other boards I’ve ridden. Interesting topic, for sure…

Steve… Outstanding! Amen! This thread also relates back to one of the main concepts behind the shortboard revolution: to integrate and focus a designs "accelerator and brakes" for balanced performance... still a functional, satisfying approach. I cant wait for comments from disciples of the hull…

Would a board with the foil and mid-point pushed a little foreward encourage a narrower stance? That is kinda what I’m looking for in a board.After a long hiatus from surfing my boards have been basically a modern sortboard.This year I was able to borrow my friend 80’s Rusty which brought back memories of a narrow stance driving off that “mid-section sweet spot” and bringing my back foot to the tail for that nice roundhouse cutback. What kind of shape am I looking for?

check out liddlesurfboards.com for pictures and short explanation of forward/center surfing.keepin’ it smooth …