Check this one out:
My farley new MR style twin fin in eps/epoxy has a leak in one of the fin boxes. The weight of the thing blew me away. It has taken on a ton of water during one session. I know this because I never ride it. A closer look revealed a separation hairline crack along the fin box. Shouldn’t futures be installed under the glass?
After I dry it out what should I do?
Route out the box and put in a new one? Patch it? Take it to the shaper?
Thanks in advance…
wow… are you sure there’s no glass on top of the box? Does it look like its just been routed, resined in, then hotcoated over? I’ve heard of others doing that, I guess its a good way of escaping the futures bubble nightmare if you don’t want any return business.
well if anyone want my opinion
any finboxes set in eps should have waterproof high density inserts
these isolate the install from the core
any manufacturer who hasnt figured this out yet needs to get there friggin shit together
core should be isolated from all plugs and inserts
id take it back and tell them its just not good enough
and you want your money back
its a mother to get the water out of an eps blank
so the best bet is not to let it get in
any damaged fin system will leak
so its imperative that its accounted for beforehand
Yeah,
I was amazed how fast the 2# eps sucked water. I looked at another eps board I own with futures and they are set under the glass. The board with a leak appears to have been over sanded as the other two futures boxes are installed under the glass. The bad box is half glassed over and the plastic on the box is exposed.
I have read the arguments here on swaylocks about installing after glassing. I think it can be done properly.
By the way I have the new Greg L epoxy glassing 101 video and he cuts slits with a razor to let bubles out of fin box on the bottom lam.
Isolation of the boxes from the core sounds like a wise idea. What’s a good HD foam for this, Silly?
I will talk to the shaper. He is a good guy. Besides, it is really the glassers fault for over sanding?
Thanks Guys!
well if anyone want my opinion
any finboxes set in eps should have waterproof high density inserts
these isolate the install from the core
any manufacturer who hasnt figured this out yet needs to get there friggin shit together
core should be isolated from all plugs and inserts
id take it back and tell them its just not good enough
and you want your money back
its a mother to get the water out of an eps blank
so the best bet is not to let it get in
any damaged fin system will leak
so its imperative that its accounted for beforehand
Sorry Silly but I completely disagree. Talking of manufacturers getting their shit together, The Lab is one of the largest production glassers on the planet here in oceanside california. They are Channel Islands #1 glasser and do the majority of their production. They are also the leading EPS glasser in the valley with the best overall quality of glassing. They do not ever use HD inserts and they do lots of EPS for lots of different labels, including the SUPS for CI. We also have lots and lots of customers that have never used HD inserts with our system ever, and have extremely good results. Off the top of my head would be Brian Bulkley and Shawn Ambrose. Both building boards for nearly 30 years. They glue in the boxes with one pour, then glass it afterwards. No problems. Maybe one of them will chime in. Applying the proper amount of glass over the box and not sanding it off during the sanding process is the key to a good installation. You must minimize flex around the box to keep it from moving around. Large football patches or even a butterfly on the tail will accomplish this and is way easier than installing a fin system twice. Not saying that HD inserts don’t help, just that they are not really necessary as long as you have a tight rout and appropriate glassing schedule. It seems a big thing for the posters here is ease of installation, but I see people doing double and even triple installs with certain systems on EPS boards. Roughing up boxes, glueing in inserts etc… jumping through all sorts of hoops just to keep the box in the board. For guys doing a couple of boards a month ok, but for production guys it can literally cut the amount of boards going out the door on friday in half…or less even.
When you’re attempting to anchor a lever arm on any composite structure, you’ve got to distribute the load that lever arm is going to experience or it will fail. 2 pound or lighter EPS foam does not have very good compression resistance. So, you can locally use denser foam to distribute the load. But, there are two problems with this 1) extra labor 2) abrupt changes in flexural modulus between the two types of foam. Or, you can use a stiffer box and distribute the load over more skin area and reinforce with a football patches. The more gradual you can make the transition from solid anchor point to flexible perimeter of the load distribution area the better the whole system will work to support itself and not have any point loading during flex.
When Clark closed his doors, I had my brother shape me a quad fish with 1 pound EPS. I’ve surfed it up to double overhead Horse Shoe and landed some fully loaded free fall bottom turns and two years of daily Lowers runs. The LokBox boxes nor the glass surrounding them are not showing any sign of fatigue after over two years of use and I’ve got a 3 ounce bottom skin. Yes, I had Kayen put two progressively larger football patches over each box. So, you can rely upon an installation that is primarily skin reliant without any High Density foam.
knew id get a few bites on that one 
if you are using water absorbing cores then the core should be isolated from potential water intrusion
its a simple thing
i discarded eps /epoxy after the second board
if its gunna suck water it may well be strong and light and have a better water barrier
the boardlady says it herself
and sandwich boards make eps/epoxy look pretty inadequate
ther are some systems that are better then others
but i believe all fin boxes and legrope plugs have the potential to leak
weather it is from damage or bad install
most likely it will be a pinhole leak between the plastic and the box
bert burger has shown a simple way to prevent this from filling a board up with water
and its called a High Density waterproof insert
usually made from pvc/pu
now personally i dont give a hoot what name shaper doesnt do it
im only interested and would purchase a board from those that do
and we all know futures get bubbles!!
stopped using them after the second install as well
i note that the biggest problem you both have mentioned is the extra labour
well that’s just to bad imo
a good quality board takes a certain amount of time
as does a average quality board
with good one usually taking longer
but then again
not everyone wants there boards to last a long time
Water can intrude from anywhere there is a break in the glass. The overlap of the laminate to the flange and the structural integrity of the box make a glassed over installation less likely of a point of water incursion than other non-reinforced areas of any board. If you hit something you are more than likely cause damage. If you damage you equipment you should fix it. By your reasoning no one should use EPS because it absorbs water and you cant just leave a damaged area damaged without water incursion.
I also put alot more weight behind continuity of flexural modulus than… “i note that the biggest problem you both have mentioned is the extra labour”
well I have installed thousands of fin systems without an insert in boards with a very low failure rate, have you been surfing long enough to remember glass ons when that was all we used for years? yes they did break out. most developed stress at the base eventually.
now some fin systems may need an insert w/ epoxy due to a rather large cavity(fcs, hence bert using them with vaporwire) but I know for a fact that lokbox as well as future hold very well in eps and I have put some big, fin rippin out motha f***ers on them, so I have a hard time with your OPINIONS
not to be taken the wrong way but why are you an expert silly? I like how with one broad stroke you write off eps /epoxy and and a method many are using successfully without incedent to install fins.
many people cut corners when building boards and it’s up to the customer to wade through the bullshit, thats not to say that every tom dick and harry should be taken to speak facts as well. opinions are like assholes everyone has one.
you can quote all the industry people you want but it does’nt really hold water unless you give us some real world experience there mate.
I’m glad you brought up the quality board thing. This will be a perfect opportunity to explain exactly why and how fin boxes break or fail completely. The steps I mentioned achieve the same thing as a high density insert does…only with NO EXTRA WORK. Unless you want to call using a thicker glass extra work. There was a topic on surfermag where everyone was complaining about lazy shapers taking forever to fill their orders. The reality, is that surfing is growing at an alarming rate. Everyone wants to surf now. And they are ordering boards. The glasshops are all clogged up and I don’t know of one that is out of work. Also don’t know of too many new ones popping up to handle the influx. I would never question Bert about his comments or methods as i have mad respect for his obvious veterean perspective. So the questions I propose are… - If you have 2 methods of installing fin boxes, both achieving nearly the same end result, but one requires twice the work as the other…which one would you think the glasser would be not only more stoked to do…but more likely to do?
Out of the 19 or so glassers in this park I know of none that use inserts, and knowing all of them on a first name basis I can guarantee you they will label any fin system requiring a double install as a “pain in the ass” which puts it straight into the corner with the other “weekend” projects. So what I’m offering is an easy…painless…and quick way to accomplish exactly what an insert will accomplish, with half the work/time. Anyone that gives a crap about how good a finbox install can come out while not altering anyones glassing routine should be all ears…
(Note) I am in no way attempting to slam futures in any way. This can and does happen to ALL the systems, just so happens that the board I have at this moment is a futures board, and it’s PU/PE but that doesn’t really matter. Same thing applies. Actually if one can read between the lines they’ll see I’m actually gonna help them out by showing people the correct way to install a fin box.
What would cause a fin box to just rip out of a board clean looking like it was routered out with a jig?
Several things.
#1 If you look closely at this pic you will see the weave pattern and see that this board was glassed with 4 ounce glass. One layer at that.
You can see it next to the box in the first pic.
#2 No football patches or butterfly. This is obvious by holding the board up to the light and seeing no “bump” around the fin area.
#3 Running a tall twin fin (like a 6 incher) and using a single layer of glass over the boxes is just brainless. The customer said he surfed the board a few times. To be honest I’m suprised it didn’t break on the first surf. Actually it probably did, he just didn’t notice the cracks starting (no one really checks their board after a surf do they?) and water got in and started doing what it does. Erode. Next hard turn and see ya later fin box.
#4 Over sanding. This is big problem these days. On that note it is way easier to strip off a 4 ounce patch as opposed to a 5 or 6 ounce patch. Installing fin systems properly is an art. Box can’t be sticking out or the sander strips off the patch. Sander needs to tell someone there is a high box or that he accidently stripped off the patch so someone can fix it before the glosser gets it and it all just disappears.
BTW the other box is broken as well just hasn’t come completely out yet. But there are cracks forming all around the box and the back of the box is recessed about 1/8th into the board. One more surf and it would have come out as well. Now take a look at this next pic to see what happens when you run a big fin and use an inappropriate amount of glass.
It’s called stress. This is the reason you see those legs coming out of the side of a crane. To keep it from toppling over. This is not rocket science. It’s called thinking ahead.
This could have very easily been avoided and saved the customer from having his board drydocked during the best swell we’ve had all year.
Simple. Minimize flex around the fin area. Running big twins? Apply a 5 or 6 ounce butterfly patch on the tail on the bottom, or large sized football patches. This moves the flex away from the joint of the box and disperses the load over a larger area rather than focusing it right on the joint. Use 5 ounce glass minimum when doing acid splashes (weight isn’t near as much of a concern on these types of boards). The amount of time this glasser saved by skipping these steps was the time it took the laminator to cut out the patch(or patches) and lay them on the board. Maybe 30 seconds or 1 minute. If the board came back to them it would eliminate any profit made on said board and clog up the shop. Hows the old saying go? “You never have time to do it right…but you always have time to do it twice”. But it didn’t…it came to me. Board drydocked for the best swell of the year, and a double box repair costing around a hundred bucks by the time I re-gloss it and blend buff it back in. Actually the guy got benton futures and asked me to retro-fit it to Lokbox. So they lost a customer as well due to improper glassing. This is why I am employed to work with the glassers to install our system, and keep this to a minimum. But I have nearly 20 years glassing experience where as most of our competitors manufacturing reps barely know the difference between catalyst and hairspray.
HD inserts are great, and really stiffen up the area. They will greatly minimize failures if not completley eliminate them. But there’s a much quicker way to accomplish the same thing. They take more time and most production glassers are gonna be less than stoked to deal with it. I can only speak for myself when I say the last thing I want is a glasser that’s bummed when working on my board.
This is great guys…
I think that any information that can improve production boards and swaylocks skunk works projects is positive.
Lokbox the quality information, pictures and good will you put up is why I never skip one of your postings. I have your boxes on a fish and it works great. No cracks with big keels. I’m looking forward to the installation video on your website.
Again, my problem is an over sanding issue. No fault of the future fin system.
I think that Silly has a point. If the cost is not an issue what is the best way to install a fin box system when your building high performance boards that are also strong?
PuPe has rendered great boards for years. If we are going to new materials it should be for a reason. Stronger is a good reason.
Thanks monkeyshines! I’m just trying to relay knowledge that I have. I hear alot of people slamming fin systems when most of the time it was an improper install. Doing things one board at a time is a whole 'nother world compared to production board building. I spend the majority of my time in glasshops dealing with installers. I know all to well what they’ll do and won’t do. What they’ll bitch about and what they’ll be stoked on. Some are only worried with how many they can do per hour. Actually that’s most of them. I feel it is our job as fin companies to develop the easiest way with the best results, then train people on that. Shoots, I have people hacking up their wives cutting boards to make a jig. And that’s fine. As long as it works and doesn’t fall out later I’m stoked. Meanwhile, we have to cater for the most part to the production guys because like it or not that’s who builds the majority of the publics boards. Doesn’t mean we don’t care about the backyard guys like all of you swaylockians. But IMO any fin company should have their installation completely dialed if they ever hope others can do it properly. Of the 4 main systems out there only myself and Probox Larry are monitoring this site daily. Considering how big the others are I’m blown away that they are not on here daily. Speaking of swaylockians, I’ve developed a new Jig specifically for doing EPS installs but I’ll start a new thread so have a look. Cheers Jim
Quote:well if anyone want my opinion
any finboxes set in eps should have waterproof high density inserts
these isolate the install from the core
any manufacturer who hasnt figured this out yet needs to get there friggin shit together
core should be isolated from all plugs and inserts
id take it back and tell them its just not good enough
and you want your money back
its a mother to get the water out of an eps blank
so the best bet is not to let it get in
any damaged fin system will leak
so its imperative that its accounted for beforehand
Sorry Silly but I completely disagree. Talking of manufacturers getting their shit together, The Lab is one of the largest production glassers on the planet here in oceanside california. They are Channel Islands #1 glasser and do the majority of their production. They are also the leading EPS glasser in the valley with the best overall quality of glassing. They do not ever use HD inserts and they do lots of EPS for lots of different labels, including the SUPS for CI. We also have lots and lots of customers that have never used HD inserts with our system ever, and have extremely good results. Off the top of my head would be Brian Bulkley and Shawn Ambrose. Both building boards for nearly 30 years. They glue in the boxes with one pour, then glass it afterwards. No problems. Maybe one of them will chime in. Applying the proper amount of glass over the box and not sanding it off during the sanding process is the key to a good installation. You must minimize flex around the box to keep it from moving around. Large football patches or even a butterfly on the tail will accomplish this and is way easier than installing a fin system twice. Not saying that HD inserts don’t help, just that they are not really necessary as long as you have a tight rout and appropriate glassing schedule. It seems a big thing for the posters here is ease of installation, but I see people doing double and even triple installs with certain systems on EPS boards. Roughing up boxes, glueing in inserts etc… jumping through all sorts of hoops just to keep the box in the board. For guys doing a couple of boards a month ok, but for production guys it can literally cut the amount of boards going out the door on friday in half…or less even.
Exactly. I have done more EPS that just about anyone here in Hawaii during the last year or so, and have had zero problems with Future/Lokbox installs. I had one of my boards smashed by a beginner and it took on water. I scraped the wax, weighed it, and left it in the hotbox (140F) until it weighed what it did when it was finished, then fixed the ding. As someone else pointed out, your logic dictates jacketing the entire EPS core in high density foam. Sounds good in theory, but EPS/epoxy is all I ride, and that includes the North Shore, and I have fewer dings or failures of any kind than with PU/PE. This includes foam densities between 1.7 and 2.3 lb. Just ask Loehr. He’s built more of the things than ANYONE. Experience and a proven track record. Can’t argue with the numbers.
ive been surfing 25 years
plugs leak
its simple
small damage is hard to detect and never noticed
pinhole leaks are never noticed
but they happen
after months of stress, glass lifts up
and resin detaches from the plastic
waterproof inserts completely isolate the core from the finbox
this prevents any water intrusion in case of fin box failure
sure water gets in a ding
but your more likely to see it and fix it
inserts should be used on finsystems and plugs when using absorbent cores
its a better way
and i couldnt care less what glass production house says is the best way
inserts are the best way to prevent water intrusion and are also potentially the strongest install
also they only take a few minutes with a router and template
so what make me an expert?
well its not rocket science
its easy to see the benefits of using inserts
what makes you an expert
im having a hard time with your opinion
As far as the rest of the guys
yes i hear what your saying about time and strength
however
monkeyshines question was about his board filling up with water through a leaking finbox
something that wouldn’t of happened if it had inserts
so my answer is an honest no bullshit solution
whatever industry guys have to say on the matter
read it and weep
http://www.boardlady.com/inserts.htm
for people who like to see there equipment last more then a year
btw you know i respect you guys
im just teasing
but i do believe they should be used in eps boards
and all my boards get them on the boxes and legrope plug
maybe production houses should offer them as an extra
i would
Moving to something else entirely, Speedfins are something that I have been playing with lately. Check out their website speeedfins.com and they recommend that you use resin only. And you install the box after glassing. Or hotcoating in my case. Bad idea to use only resin? Pro box systems recommend fibreglass roving as one method for holding the box in and this brings me to my next point. Not sure if adding milled fibre to the resin along with the roving wrapped around the box is a good idea. Which brings me to my next, next point. Does adding filler or milled fibreglass add more adhesion to the resin? FIll a ding with just straight resin and it just falls out. Add filler and it stays in a whole lot better. What does this have to do with the price of fish? Not a lot, but there you go.
funny how everyone is so concerned with strength and keeping the box in
yet none of this solves Monkeyshines water issue
nor has anyone suggested a simple repair method
changing the subject is as good as backtracking into a corner
imo glassed over systems are over engineered if you land on the rocks with glassed over systems
it damages the whole board
because it causes the glass to tear away from the blank and catastrophically damages the core
which then starts filling with water if its eps
with a system like fcs and using inserts
the resin bond will fail and the plug will come loose or shatter
if high density inserts are used there is generally very little damage to the surrounding board or glass
and absolutely no water gets in
1 minute with a router and a new plug later
i believe it would be the same with probox and 4wf
no damage to the surrounding glass
surftech, who have been building superior eps boards that last many years,
have been using inserts for many years
sunova and firewire use inserts
i use inserts
all the compsanders use inserts
inserts rule
I spend the majority of my time in glasshops dealing with installers. I know all to well what they’ll do and won’t do. What they’ll bitch about and what they’ll be stoked on. Some are only worried with how many they can do per hour. Actually that’s most of them.
what a morose existence that is
and im supossed to take the advice of these guys
if the only thing they care about is how many installs they can do in an hour
i ill never accept the “industry standard” as the correct way
with that sort of attitude
Well I find it funny that people will write up a whole page full of opinions and won’t take 2 seconds to do any research so they can back it up. If you ever looked at our site, namely the section labeled “the box” you’d see that someone actually took the time to attempt to get around the problem of impacts to fins. But obviously you haven’t. I mentioned what I do as a way to back up my statements so they don’t sound like hot air opinions. Maybe I should have included the fact that while they are concerned with how many they can do per hour, they also have been pushed by their bosses to do it right. This is what they do all day every day and have it more wired than anyone. They figure out how to get faster without cutting corners. Obviously there are exceptions. You don’t want to take advice from experts then good on ya and good luck. You probably haggle with the local trained mechanic when he tells you whats wrong with your car too. As far as helping the guy out that started this thread - Your solution was
"take it back and tell them its just not good enough
and you want your money back "
That should go over real good. You went on and on about using inserts which doesn’t help monkeyshines one bit at this point.
If water has contacted the foam the box has to come out. Provided monkeyshines has an appropriate router, then he should router it out. Once the box is completely routered out, he’ll then need to asess how much deeper he’ll have to rout down to get to good foam. At that point he could install a HD insert, sand it flat, then re-rout the hole and install a new box. Glass over it, hotcoat it and sand it back down.
You also mentioned “and we all know futures get bubbles!! stopped using them after the second install as well”
So you stopped using them after two tries because you couldn’t figure out how to install them without getting bubbles right? Maybe I’m assuming. As I mentioned I deal with installers all day every day. The ones you say you wouldn’t take any advice from. They don’t get bubbles. Maybe a few microscopic ones but that’s it. Nothing that’s gonna leak water. They’ve figured it out. That’s their job. You gave up. If they did that they’d be out of a job. A snip or razor blade slice in the glass along the cavity will eliminate the tenting and bubbles forming by releasing the tension of the glass and let it lie flat. You chase the bubbles out once and they don’t come back. An expert like you should have figured that out.
You also included
"ive been surfing 25 years
plugs leak
its simple
small damage is hard to detect and never noticed
pinhole leaks are never noticed
but they happen
after months of stress, glass lifts up
and resin detaches from the plastic
waterproof inserts completely isolate the core from the finbox
this prevents any water intrusion in case of fin box failure"
Which proves you didn’t even read my posts, or if you did you didn’t understand them. Plugs do leak. That’s because they are not glassed over. Resin does not achieve a chemical bond to plastic. Only a mechanical bond. If you impact something hard enough that mechanical bond will fail and allow water in. Since water does not compress, repeated stress on the now weakend plug will begin to weaken the resin around it until it cracks and the plug flies out. Glassed over fin boxes installed properly with the appropriate amount of glass over and around them don’t leak unless they are over sanded stripping the glass off the box, or if they receive an impact breaking the box loose from the foam tearing the glass and go un-fixed. The whole point of the cap of glass is to minimize or eliminate water ever getting in. Futures and Lokboxes recent growth proves that this works. At least half of our customers have come to us after being tired of failing non-glassed over fin plugs. We have a solid year of working with Taylor on his ultralight foam 4 ounce glassed boards. Can’t think of too many people that could “stress” their boxes more than him. Some of his boards are a year old and he hasn’t broke one box yet. Why aren’t they just falling out by now?
He did damage one on his last trip to indo. A guy from one of the other boats paddled straight in front of him as he was flying out of the barrel and he ran straight into him. He had nowhere to go as he never saw the guy until he came out of the tube and he was right there. Said he hit the guy so hard he thought he killed him. Considering the board is a fairly lightweight constructed PU board I expected serious damage. When I got the board I noticed that it almost took the rail with it. Almost. But since it was glassed over, the box stayed in. Thanks to the finlok bending and releasing the fin, he was able to do a quick solarez repair on the boat, flatten the plate back out , install a new fin, and he was back in the water a few sets later. Exactly what I designed the system to do. I sanded the seperated patch off and re-capped it and wrapped some glass around the rail to make the rail solid again. A simple repair that took only a few minutes and didn’t involve a box replacement.
…lokbox
yes, very good
nice product development
but, will be good if you answer with that energy (like that)some of the other post about your fins
for ex.:
the front speed dialers fins sizes
whats your opinion to do double foiled bonzer side runners
etc
thank you