Is this possible? If so, how so?
Nope. In my opinion anyways…Gotta wait until (at least) one side has kicked.
No. Absolutely not.
I mean, hell, I dunno.
Why the hell would you wanna do somethin’ crazy like that anyway?
Damn kids.
Hi DeanBo,
Actually, I know this might sound counter-intuitive, but we were able to glass a board
like you mention.
We messed with this method for a while, then Clark closed and a lot of experimenters
were coming to us. One group of guys, from Brazil, had the epoxy thing totally figured
out- their boards surfed/felt ‘right’ and were very light and strong. We had their top
glasser come and demonstrate a board build and to our surprise, he glassed both sides
in the same session.
I had a lot of photos of this method on my old website but that is all gone now…
You would think that flipping a ‘wet’ board would be crazy, and I think you’re right, only
if you are using normal techniques. What I mean is the board really needs to be ‘wet’
to flip. When I glass a normal bottom, it is kicking in 8 minutes, so if I flip it, the board
is NOT really wet and all the advantages of doing the ‘wet flip’ are lost plus more work
is created.
To get all the advantages of strength, lightness, and not having to prep the first lap,
the board needs to be truly wet at the time of Flip. For epoxy this is possible, and
best done at the onset of “B stage” just so things stay in place. Flip and start pulling
the cloth and keep going. Timing is key. Too slow or too quick can be a PITA.
The boards were consistently stronger than with normal construction. We found this
technique worked really well with epoxy but I’ve done it with polyester too.
To keep the polyester boards ‘wet’ (or at least wet where it mattered) I switched
to UV lam resin. I do what I call the “five second flash”. Normal UV layup is done and
then exposure is done on the BOTTOM PANEL ONLY for about 5 seconds (direct sun).
This starts the bottom to firm up and with some ‘pizza-flip skills’ you can flip the board.
The rails will be WET, but they will have kicked just a little from the scattered light.
Then pull deck cloth, cut and lam. NO lap preps, it just blends in. STRONGER. I think
the board at the rail is strongest with this method, and a majority of the overall boards’
strength comes from this zone.
I’ve glassed a board in less than an hour with perfect and clean results. Easy to sand.
One thing to look out for is making your rack unsticky, use clean releasing plastic rather
than wax paper (styrene and xylene dissolve wax paper).
Hope this rant helps,
George
Hey PlusOneShaper, what kind of plastic is good for that?
I am super interested in that, actually. That is what I want to do.
So bottom lam (2 layers?), flip wet, top lam (3 layers?) What’s the lap cut process like? At some point, you jack some fin plugs in there?
thanks!
Did you have lap bumps?
Hi Janklow,
Actually we found the plastic that our fin systems were shipped in worked really
well! (cheap but effective). I reckon Ziploc plastic bag material is comparable.
Just double sticky tape the rack head as usual, then tack on little squares of
plastic.
(I wished I had that pictorial of this build method on our website but it is all gone now
and is out of my control).
Depending upon the build method, bottom lam, flip at onset of B-stage (slight glugginess
in the bucket), pull cloth, cut, lam the deck. We were doing some 1.4 lb density
EPS with single 6 bottom, 4/6 deck with this. Multi layer are no problem, though they
will reach B-stage sooner.
I cut the laps as normal, the shears don’t get too mucked up, if they did, then I was
being way to heavy-handed. Lap size is an issue, and we found it to be a great tuning
feature. Of course, body-thickness is the ruler of shape flex.
If doing a Compsand, probably want to pre-pot the plugs otherwise we just do them
after bottom hotcoat. We do the added step of undercutting each penetration into
the board, then seal the holes with an slurry, then pot. PU/PE install is done as normal.
You should notice subjectively an increase in durability and strength.
I am starting a pretty interesting R&D project pretty soon, I’ll try to post here if it finally
happens. Looks like I’ll really have some time soon, I hope…
HTH
George
imho whats the hurry? why is every one in such a rush to build a “surfboard”?
and plus one please double check what you are saying. i really dont want to have to "check " you on this one.
if you don’t prep the laps then you are just floating the boat so there is no bump. whats stronger about that?
what part of the board “needs” to be left wet? but hey what do i know, right?
the guys reading over my shoulder are having a field day with this one so lets be honest here people!
tight and light, not wet and in a rush to get both sides on!
I hear you DARTH, not my everyday technique. The speed was a secondary thing.
What we found was a stronger board is possible with a bit of hassle. With some
of the extreme light epoxy boards we have to do for comps, the extra strength
is quite noticible. The boards maintain their spring for a longer time as well, so
perhaps durability and longevity are the advatages.
Every single board made this way lasted longer even when used in the tropics.
I wished I could put tangible, objective numbers on it, like “it was 10% stronger”
but it has been subjective. (I don’t think I’ve been smoking crack, I don’t do drugs).
The rails blend together much like when you do a deck or foot patch, the fibers
in fiberglass are sponge-like in their behavior. Putting a subsequent layer over the
first wet lap, squeezes it out kinda like with vacuum bagging. The sponge effect
is squashed-down. The taper is very slight and gradual, less overall resin is used
(as you may know a lot of an ultralight board’s weight comes from the compounding
of layers on the rails).
So I have to agree, it’s crazy, and counter-intuitive. But I’ve ridden quite a few
of these now, and it is not my imagination plus I really DON’T want to turn my
work crew loose on this method (ohhhh boy…) and by nature I am VERY skeptical
about what works and does not.
My GUESS is some how the polymerization is more unified doing the entire board
in a single curing session. I HIGHLY recommend postcuring with epoxy, and trying
to get as good a reaction that goes to completion as possible (with polyester too).
I’ll get off the “wet” layup soapbox before I get knocked down…
…and dragged out of here. ha hah. Just wanted to share some results…
Are you talking about your man Teco? If so, I saw that and thanks for showing.
plusoneshaper ---- awesome you can give a straight answer to a question as (seemingly) wild as this!
and thanks to the brazilian shaper or whoever wrenched this out of his brain first.
your discussion of the effects looks quite complete already. if one takes in account the power of adhesion and cohesion, of which the first overpowers gravitation on the microhaired feet of spiders and cameleons (i think), and the second overpowers gravitation in a waterdrop on the ceiling, the wet flip makes perfect sense. maybe the glassfibers of the different layers really clog together inmidst a strong embrace of resin sucking inbetween them.
good one George
was wondering when that one would come out
ive done it a couple of times
it may have been you who suggested it to me actually
and a few of the regular compsanders do it
gets a bit trickier with multi layers i think
i tried with three layers you can get bubbles and ridges a bit on the rails if you dont stagger the laps right
but 1 layer was easy
George is correct
if you are using epoxy
when you lay on the other side over the laps it absorbs excess resin
and theoretically you have a stronger,stiffer rail due to chemical adhesion and better meshing of the fabrics
it can be done with bagging
or just handlayup
im trying different stuff at the moment though
btw i may have those photos from your site saved somewhere if you want me to publish them
i definitely have the shaping ones
so the secret dark-age-brotherhood who kept this hidden throughout the milleniums is now torn outside to stinging daylight? aarghh aaaaarghhh!
lol
nah just playing and experimenting mate
if everything we tried was published
id be labelled as an eccentric loony and subsequently banned from swaylocks for upsetting the status quo
and for being overly provocative 
With multiple layers on the first lam, I found a VERY light misting of spray adhesive where
the largest lap will lay is very helpful. I don’t even wet out the entire lap using that technique,
but it allows me to go to “Flip” sooner since I don’t have to fuss with the first lap saturation
nearly as much.
(You may have seen Teco hitting those giant laps, they take a lot of time upside-down)
(He also rolled back layers to glass the ‘deepest’ layer and allow the outer layers to pull
the epoxy outward, rather than letting it pool inward)
Not obsessing with being quick, just easier to wet the first lap whilst glassing the deck, ha ha.
I think I have exposed too much to the stinging daylight, it kinda… …stings.
If you want to try the dusting with spray adhesive (like 3M Super77), NEVER spray a
significant amount onto the blank. Just let it fall onto the board. Fiberglass sticks really
well to this adhesive. Using a small amount prevents any off-gassing or discoloring.
Don’t bother doing the large flat panels, just the rails, corners, etc. Use resin where the
adhesive doesn’t hold, with time you get pretty good at it.
Basically your first lam is like pulling a ‘drum head’ tight, being held with the adhesive.
I think I’ve said too much. It’s really starting to really sting now, time to recoil back to the
darkness before all gets exposed…
Hi all,
I have been doing that for years now, I just hate lap sanding and the bond between the top and bottom is much better.
With epoxy it is best to wait till the bottom is sticky and doesn’t make threads when touched, 2-3 hours, before turning the board.
This prevents pressure from moving the resin on the bottom, so no bumps. The sticky bottom lam helps for sticking the top laps on the board.
Soul
Snickering Swirly Stormtroopers!
I do it almost every day and have on every board I’ve done since the early nineties. Wouldn’t do it any other way.
I tried it too on my last board, I will stick with that technique, easy and saves time with epoxy lamination, saves resin too. Less work overall and once you have prepared everything, do it all at once instead of getting ready twice and wait twice the kicking time.
Here’s the archive of the method from your old site
http://web.archive.org/web/20070711092126/www.plusonesurf.com/EPS2.html
I’ve done one board this way, went kind of ok. I as planning on doing total 5 layers of glass, and a polyester veil on both sides. The resin started to gel halfway through so I had to leave one veil cloth off. Laps came out nice and smooth, worth doing for me cos I hate sanding, dunno about for a production setup.
I was thinking of priming the first side with a faster epoxy to create something sticky for the glass to hang on to when I flip. That way I reason you should be able to keep the main lam epoxy properly wet and get all the benefits.