Hi,
I’m looking to build a gun for a friend of mine.
Hes an experienced surfer and is looking for a gun in the 9’6’’ range about 21’’ wide with full pin tail.
We have locked down most of the dimentions but I’m a little stuck with what bottom contours to go with.
Has anyone any suggestions please.
Ned
Well I waited for those with much more experience than I to say something, but… So to answer your question I’d say it depends. The classic is rolled vee in the nose, flat, to vee through fins to tail tip or flat.
No expert by any means but I got my own opinions. Would actually like to hear from those who have done literally hundreds of these types of boards if not thousands what they think. I think that quads have changed what a standard bottom contour would be on a gun. So it depends on what kind of gun it is and for what kind of wave.
I’d ask the guy your making the board for what he wants. Is this a full gun rockered gun or a fun gun? Is it for a take off and go straight type of wave or a big wave that requires lots of turning? What is the ability level of the rider. Whats the setup quad, single, thruster, two plus one?
Is the rider looking for an easy turning kind of rolling over feeling from the gun or a tracking drag racer. Vee will give the board that rolling feel, concave will require more effort to turn rail to rail. An inset vee (vee below the rail line) inside a concave or double will give a bit of both feelings.
If I guy orders a gun and leaves it up to me I’ll usually go with a slight double to flat off the rear fin on a thruster, actual vee on a single fin or a two plus one setup and more concave with less double on a quad. Quads always get more rocker in the tail to compensate for the lower stringer rocker of the concave and the tracking issues with the 4 fins than a comparable thruster.
On the guns I tend to over exaggerage the contours more than a shortboard or a step-up to account for the extra glass and resin. If you aren’t laminating and sanding the boards yourself it can be easy to fill in concaves and mute vees with big laps and too much sanding resin in shallow spots. That and sanding can alter the contours as well.
Hope this helps. Still though would love to hear what Barnfield would say about this. He’s done a few of these boards.
Gun is to be ridden where? Size of waves desired? At 9' 6'' x 21'', anything on the North Shore is fair game.
Hey DMP thanks for the info all very helpful.
I’m actually looking to build a quad, so it looks like concave might be the right type of contour I’m looking for.
The guy I’m building it for is a good powerful surfer and has spent time on the North shore so I asume he will use it here mostly, waimea included.
The board is to be full rockered rather than a fun gun.
If I use concave should I v the front section of the board and flat off the tail? It sounds like subtle is the key here as the board needs to plane as much as possible and flat always seams to be the best for that.
Sounds like your on the North Shore, and if I were you I would contact Bill Barnfield and pay him to shape it. Furthermore, if I were you I would pay him a extra 100 to watch him shape it. The wisdom is you’ll get to see how a real pro does it, and next time you may be ready. Thing is if you have to ask the people here, you probably don’t have the knowledge to do it the right way, and I have to say there are not too many people around here qualified to do it let alone tell someone else how to do it. I think that’s why it took so long for people to chime in. Personally, I like shaping guns more than about anything in this world, except for riding them. I was checking the lines of a quad with Ken Collins at the “Big Wave World Tour” awards banquet, and was tripping on how thin his tail foiled out the last 18’’ inches. He was animated on how well the board worked, and he is more than qualified to ride them. Skindog is a good guy who probably has a future in politics, as well as, conquering enormous surf with his bare hands.
If I were on the North Shore, I’d do this…
If you’re set on shaping it though, I would PM Robin Mair (Handshaper).
He does quad guns that get ridden in HUGE surf.
If you can, maybe shoot Stretch (Quadrapalegic) a PM on the Surfermag BB.
He (obviously) knows his way around a quad gun too.
Hey Grat,
I’ll never get to Hawaii, and ride anything I’d need a gun for. But really wanting to strech my understanding.
I’d be happy with maybe three or four key points on gun rocker. Just a primer on what goes into them. What do you think those most important points are for you?
On the other hand, ResinHead makes some sweet guns.
Hey RH what’s up with Gun Rocker? Looking for something in case Plaskett has some size. Not madness size, but something bigger than my 7-8" would want.
Some things to consider, where, how big, ocean conditions, winds, entry. planing, exit, flow, balance, rail line, fin size, and placement, flow, balance, thickness, rail contours, and thickness, volume transition, rider weight, age and skill level, power surfing or survival, paddle speed, or duck dive (who cares, but some people want it). Guns are designed to control speed, rather that generate it for the most part. That doesn’t really even cover the basics, so its nice to have the board shaped and designed by someone who has been there, and paddled over the ledge and to the air with only a taste of a rail or fin separating the rider, from something that could take your life, and the difference between success and failure, just may be that little design flaw that went undetected by the “shaper” who only had a catalogue to go by, or the "experts’ here on Swaylocks.
Your welcome. I’m probably going to get a rash for this but I really can’t tell with the old vee in the nose thing. Wind deflection and all that sound good but if your going to take a late one and eat it, its’ going to happen no matter what. So I don’t put it into the nose anymore unless its requested.
I’m guessing your going to use the 9’9" A or something close. Lots of rocker, thick, I try to imagine funneling the water through the fin cluster on the quads. You could pretty much use the stock rocker and once you get it ready to do the bottom keep it simple.
I’m more surprised the customer isn’t more specific. Big difference between Sunset and Waimea.
If he’s really serious at making a go at some monster surf then I’m sure he’ll be letting you know what he likes and doesn’t like about the board. The challenge will be trying to figure out the cause and effect.
This one was the full monty, vee nose, flat to vee to flat, two plus one. Knee paddler gun for an older gentleman.
Slight vee panel before fins as the board was meant to be ridden further forward as it’s an 11’3" and very wide.
And yes I do not have the skills to glass a board like that, yellow tint, pinline, cutlap, gloss polish, yikes! That was done by John Delaney, thanks John.
Sorry no bottom contour shots but this has a double to flat. Concaves funnel the water through the fins. The rolled vee between the fins allows for easier rail to rail action. This one is a keeper. Some are just o.k. but this is a good one. Projects well out of turns.
The one on the left is a 9’6" with a more traditional shape, quad. Similar bottom as the board above. Just different rocker profile, more for going straight fast. The one on the right is for something different.
DMP,
Really good!
Can you tell more about the rockers?
Nose and Entry, Fins and Tail?
What I’m really looking for is the transitions, Where is the flattest section? Under chest for paddeling? or under feet for speed? What are your thoughts on the back third in terms of turning vs. stability and tracking?
Looks like the wide point is forward of center on those two. Where do you put it, and is it important, or because of the length it doesn’t matter as much?
On the Quad, the fin cluster looks a little forward. Where do you place your fins?
Thanks in advance
Woah, i don't want to imagine seeing the waves they are intended for feathering 100 metres in front of me!.
Many moons ago I was told by a wise old owl of the sea (??) that multi-finned guns can actually slow you down in major surf. He said that you can get up soo much speed that it RESTRICTS the water flow through the fin cluster. This has always made me think in terms of singles with side bites. Anybody have that experience with tris or quads?
Many thanks to those who have chimed DMP in particular,
Those guns look awesome.
I like the sound of double concave to flat to v, although as you suggest I'll keep it subtle and simple.
Unfortunately I'm not on the North shore so can't pay Bill Barnfield a visit although it would be great to see him work.
The guy specified a super thin tail, like Kenny Colins has by the sounds of it, must work well with a quad set up to keep manoeuvrable, and less tracky.
Thank you.
Blanks are Arctic gun blanks with natural rockers. I’m pretty sure they are using the Surfblanks rockers which you can view online.
I only added rocker in the tail of the boards except for the one 9’4" which I went with a custom rocker (lower entry customers request).
So far most of the gun rockered blanks seem to have a good built in curve for paddling and general wave riding. The bigger blanks have so much slow curve through the middle it would be difficult to alter that through shaping over the entire length to get it to do something different. Easier to have numbers and move the template within the blank to get the numbers your looking for. You could definately flatten the rocker out and have it paddle better but it would be a handful taking off. Same with the actual turning of the board. Most of the time your feet are going to find the sweet spot on their own. Because of the size of the board your not standing on the fins like a short board and turning is a much slower affair. So the transition of the rocker isn’t as extreme as a shortboard. Like I said I try to keep it smooth. Have numbers but keep the transition of the rocker clean. The rail line and the weight of the board don’t really allow for quick turns anyway so no sense in trying to make the board do what it can’t.
I’m not too sure about “stability” but tracking for sure. The quads track but in a good way. Been carrying the foam thicker towards the tail for paddling power and worrying less about having the rail assist the fins in holding the board through turns. I’m also not much into the “wider tail for a quad thing”. On a larger board like these it can make the outline too straight. I’d rather go narrower in the tail to maintain some curve and use smaller fins.
Yes the wide point is forward. 8-12" puts more foam under your chest.
The fin setup is a modified Mckee. Its the only way I can keep my sanity. I have a placement chart from 5’-11’. Shows placements for thrusters and quads. It gets tweaked for certain boards but provides a baseline for each length. The Mckee setup was good but as I started to apply my own rockers I changed the forward and rear placements. I also didn’t like his distance to stringer stuff. I prefered them a bit further out towards the rail than what he recommends.
I also want to make it clear that I don’t profess that I actually know anything. I’m no expert, just trying to give a little help. I’ll always owe Swaylocks and all the people that were nice enough to help me when I had a question or two.
When it comes to these guns I feel too much emphasis is put on the equipment. You still need to paddle like your ass is on fire, be able to throw yourself over that ledge, and be willing and able to take the beatings.
Good info,
Thanks
If you are going quad - which I do - then the Robin Mair fin set up is good, and a double through the fins w/vee too is good. I like a serious dose of vee/belly in the nose/entry to flat to slight single to double. Thick belly for paddle, thin narrow tail for control.
Contrary to some people’s approaches, I do like to get my back foot between my front and rear fins, so I can do turns when the opportunity arrises.
Alway inspiring DMP! you have a great ability with words and boardbuilding! All I can come up with is, “yeah! what HE said!”