Gun for Dungeons

General Discussion
1

I’ve been training hard and I’d like to take a crack at Dungeons in Cape Town, either this season or the next. (Probably the next, because even if I order the board today, by the time it is done, the season will be almost over.) For those of you familiar with Mavericks, well Dungeons is similar, but a bit more shifty. My current all-rounder is a 7’0" x 20 3/4" x 2 3/4" modeled after the “Black Beauty” and I ride it in conditions a bit bigger than this: http://magicseaweed.com/photoLab/viewPhoto.php?photoId=292736

For bigger conditions I borrow a friend’s 8’5", but I’d like to get a real gun for myself to go surf Dungeons with. I am 95kg, 6’2", and hell bent.

As far as dimentions go, I was thinking around the line of 9’6" to 10’6", and say 4" thick. As for width, I’m not sure. Would 23" be too much?

As for bottom contours a vee throughout the board sounds like the best idea, maybe flattening a bit in the middle to increase speed down the line.

Also, would 6/6/4 glassing on both sides be overkill, or not so much? I don’t mind if the board is insanely heavy, in fact, with the winds and chop that I will have to deal with, it might be a good thing, but I don’t want an anchor either.

 

What do the guys who have done this before think?

2

Brewer talks about a full concave bottom engaging the rail better maybe do some research into his boards. 

3

I built a Gun, for Dr. M W White, that was 10’ 6’’ x 23’’ x 3 3/4’’ thick.     He rode everything on the North Shore, except Pipeline, with that board.  Sunset, Waimea, Laniakea, and giant Makaha in December 1969.      Somewhere I have a photo of him on a 30 foot wall that day.    So, no, 23 inches is not too wide.    He said he had no issues with the board.    The bigger the wave, the better it went.    A good friend, and early big wave pioneer, Jim Fisher, preferred a board 10’ x 22’’ for big waves.    And he’s ridden some monster surf, back in the day.    If I had it all to do over again, I still think I’d want a specialized big wave gun to be 10’ x 21.5 to 22 inches wide, and weigh in at approx 30 pounds.    In wave approaching 20 feet, and beyond, such a board becomes a thing alive.    There is no perception of board weight.    The board just goes where you think it.    There is a lot more to it, but that’s the starting point.     Those kind of boards are best done by people that have walked the walk, if you know what I mean.  

4

To zack: Hmmm, true, but then again rail-to-rail transitions will be made more difficult. Maybe a mixture of vee and double concave…? (As in a double concave where the midline of the board extends out like a vee.)

Dungeons isn’t a steep and barreling type wave (not to be confused with the 2.5 slab section) but more of an extended wall, so I would be making a big drop and then I’d have to crank out a huge bottom turn. Transitioning from flat to on-the-rail while going that fast on a board that big with full concave might be a bit tricky. If this was Fiji we where talking about, then I can understand that one would want that extra stick to hold a line in the barrel, but I need to be able to do rail-to-rail transitions on a 10ft board on a 20ft+ wave, so I am not sure concave is the answer here…

 

Someone with more knowledge please correct me if I’m thinking out of my arse here.

5

 

Good to know 23 inches isn’t too wide…

 

As for weight, I had a feeling heavier would be a whole lot better. I’ve seen too many photo’s of guys taking air drops and their boards looking as if it wants to fly into the guy’s face.

 

I’m thinking of getting the board done by a shaper who’s label is Baron. He shapes Grant Baker’s boards, and if it is good enough for Twiggy, it’s good enough for me. Now to find the $1500-$2000 I’ll need for a gun shaped by him, as well as some extra cash for the gear I need to stay warm in the fridgid water… Plus the petrol money to get there when the swell starts pumping in. Oh, and don’t forget to budget for a second board, 'cause that place snaps boards like toothpicks, no matter how thick you glass it.

6

Trust me, concave is NOT the answer.    You are correct in that belief.

7

In the past, the standard glueup for a Gun was two 3/4th inch RW stringers.     Buzzy Trent would have three 3/4th inch RW’s down the center.    He liked his big wave boards 11’ to 11’ 2’', and around 40 to 42 pounds.    You might consider two 3/4th inch Bass stringers.    It’s stronger than RW.    Same weight or lighter.    Put a 1/16th inch RW between them to make a giant reverse T-band.     A board like that needs to be pretty too.

8

I’ve shaped boards for Twig, Baron would be a good call especially if you don’t want to fly with the board. Just let the shaper do the work, don’t tell him what to do, and you will get a great board. Good luck.

9

  I've shaped 9'7" x 18, 9'11" x 20, and at least 7 different 8'6" x 18 thru 20.5" wide semi guns, and well over 10, high 7' mini guns, in addition to corraborating with SteveMorgan of Brewer to get me 8'10", 9'2", 9'3", and 10'4"  full guns from BrewerMorgan.  Owned a Colleta 9'6" x 21", and one BK 9' x 20" for Sunset.

  For glassy conditions, some SLIGHT concave is good for acceleration, usually accompanied by deep V, so double concave on each panel blending into tried and true V out the tail, full tail rocker.

  For rougher waters, like Mavericks (best in slight onshore winds), a slight belly with soft thick rails, even out the back behind your stance is good for holding power, no drop out surprises, giving you more paddle power per inch, more solid hold in steeps.

  Nose width per preference and amount of offshore wins.  Some guys like wider noses, thinking it paddles better, but we know it drops in later in strong offshore winds.  Some guys like needle noses, knowing they can push it over the edge and down, but it taks away paddle power.

  One key is to have NO ears, or edges on the outline, that often catch when you're a bit forwards trying to get down off the top.  A smooth blend of rocker and template allows the board to keep moving even when you jamm too hard on the edge and front.

  Thickness in the tail is important to lift early, allowing you to paddle DOWN the face from the beginning.  And thicker tail rails actually hold in more predictably.

  Single fins drop in the soonest, while multi fins can have better hold in the steeper, bumpier sections.  That one is up to your preference. 

  Hornet shaped tails are a good blend between the holding power of a pintail and the smoothness of a rounded pin tail.  No need for squash, swallows, or any of that fish stuff here.

  While it seems logical to add thickness forwards ala the old "Brewer" foil idea, in the real world, thickness forwards hurts more than helps in huge waves.  You need to tip the board's nose downwards, the most important factor in getting paddling speed up to snuff.  Thick point just in front of center, WidePoint maybe 4-6" ahead of center.

  But as said by a knowledgeable poster, talk to your shaper, but let him decide what works best for HIS style of shaping and his preferences for big wave boards.

  I had some quirks that other shapers didn't like, like FLAT decks and semi blocky 3/4 turned down well tucked, but with a edge, rails.  Didin't like the water wrapping over the whole deck, and wanted to water to release after wrapping around the soft down rails, for a more consistent hold, albiet less pure carving power.  You don''t really carve +20 waves, except at Pinballs.  You need a solid, predictable edge holding turn. not a sink and slash.

  Seems big stringers make the board stronger vs breakage than heavy glassing, as heavy glassing get stiff, starts to stress fracture, and has lots of momentum/kinetic energy.  A lighter board actually "pop's up" into a tombstone quicker, giving you an indication of the surface.

  Good luck, I won't ever again be able to ride big waves, so it's your turn.  I'm 64.

10

I was thinking of using one of the local hardwoods. My street name is ‘Ysterhout Crescent’ Ysterhout is Afrikaans for Ironwood. The stuff is INSANELY strong, and quite heavy too, and since weight is a good thing in a gun…

11

LeeD wrote: "Good luck, I won't ever again be able to ride big waves, so it's your turn.  I'm 64."

My favorite quote of the day

 

Tom Kelly, 63

12

Ironwood is quite brittle.     I once did a three stringer board, with Black Walnut stringers.     What a nightmare!      I can’t imagine Ironwood!!!   Think of your poor shaper.    Have some mercy.

13

  Weight.....

  First of all, a really stiff big stringer (s) gives the board a DEAD feel, like a block of hardwood, and something that reverberates thru your ankles and knees, transmitting shock to you directly, and affecting your balance and ride in an adverse manner.

  While that's personal, and affected by your size (you big), it's universal when you talk to the bigger guys like Doc and Grant.  A ride that absorbs the shock of the wave face, one that dissapates the chop, not enhancing it, is a better solution, although durability can be compromise when going that direction of lighter, softer stringers and using more layers of lighter weight glass.

  When paddling for bigger waves, you need to accelerate from a spinaround to around 17 mph in less than 7 strokes.  A heavier board has more inertia, possibly making those 7 strokes really heavy, and possibly needing another two, which you don't have time to implement.  And remember, you start to lose acceleration after somewhere between your 5th and 9th strokes.

  When you make a 9' board, say 22" wide, you're already talking about a light glass job at 20 lbs.  A big wave glass job may be pushing 25 lbs.  You don't really want heavier.

  And lighter weight guns respond better, no only to your input, but also to the wave faces chop and for avoiding the dreaded rail dig when pushing the nose downwards and trying to accelerate up to speed.

  Unless you want only to Roy it, a lighter weight gun is always a better, quicker, easier ride....until you hit nasty conditions, of course.

  Most shaper use the heaviest density foam for gun boards, so a lighter glass job can be acceptable.  Light might be double 4 and 6 per side, 4 lap rails.

  And I liked the idea of thicker boards, narrower templates, especially in the nose and tail for punching down offshore winds, but also for durability for punch thrus and wipeouts.

14

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Listen to what Randy Cone said, he makes  Big Guns for a living on a daily. You are not going to get a good used big wave board-- people don’t sell the keepers. Get good one made and ride it in small stuff until you don’t have to think about the board any more. Be in good shape and get ready for the learning curve. Your shaper should know the wave better than us. On my OB SF full on gun boards I like 9’-10’ boards with full lap 2x6oz on the deck and 6oz on the bottom @ 19-20lbs  with less rocker and 21"W and 12"T. Mavericks I like 10’-11’ boards with more tail rocker & 6+4oz on both sides full lap @ 25-28lbs 20"W with 10.5"tail. Three 1/4 Basswood=3/4 stringers work the best for me. I am 6’1.5" and 82KG… Have fun!!

15

My 2 cents: Get a big blank, have a local shaper shape you a board as thick as long and as wide the blank permits. Flat deck, down rails v to flat to v and make it a single fin. Foam should be dense. US Blanks 10’6" A = good. Go for it and relax in the hold down. Read this book:

http://breatheology.com/shop/breatheology-ebook/breatheology-e-book

Have fun! : )

16

Ian!

You are a MADMAN!

17

  It's simple, really.

  First, get yourself a 9'7" x 19" wide BarryKaniapuni style full gun.

  Then, tell all your peers you have this board.

  Now, pressure is on, you have no excuse to pass on any big days!

  Just await high tide, paddle out, and see if any of your friends are on the cliff watching........

18

Hi Francois, 

I just finished shaping my first 9+ gun today. The board is for a guy who is starting surfing big waves (he is around 70 kg/150lbs).

I´m not an experienced shaper so I tried to make it simple. It´s a 9’8’’ x 10 1/2’’ x  20 3/4’’ x 11 1/4’’ x 3 3/8’'. Bottom: soft vee in the nose to flat to vee. 

I shaped it from a USblanks 9’9 A (unfortunately 1/4’’ stringer) , kept the rocker of the blank. 

I pretend glassing it 6/6/4 deck and 6/4 bottom. Doing a triple lap. The wave is generally glassy.

As far for the fins I´m putting 5 fin boxes to have some options. Write me if you need some fin positioning stuff, I can share it with you. 

 

I´m really stoked with the shape. I´m planing building another gun for me but wider and thicker (I´m 90kg/200 lbs and 194cm/6’4’')


19

  Cool gun…

  One thing to consider…  You need different widths for different waves.  Average 8’ board for Pipe is narrower than for Sunset.  I used 8’ as an example because Pipe rarely needs anything longer, while Sunset can be ridden pretty big with 8’ miniguns, if you play the inside game.

  Wiamea needs paddle power, so width is important to get the board volume to paddle in rough water and against strong offshore winds.  And of course, lengths over 9’ is recommended, even 10’

  I"m not familiar with the lineup at Dungeons.  Is it an outside reef wave, or near shore?  I know it jacks hard on the rocky reef…is it fast moving swell or draggy big waves like in Spain?

  And some breaks like to shift with the direction of the swells.  Shifty big waves need big board with width and volume, while waves that break in mostly the same spot can be ridden easier with a narrower gun.

20

Bumping up for  h2Overhead…give it a good look.