Hey, I am having a new shortboard custom made and I was given the option between hand shaped epoxy and clark. As most of us have, I have always ridden clark and have been pretty sketpical of epoxy. I have heard from both people who love their epoxy and those who hate them because of the chatter and lack of flex. The one I may be having made will be hand shaped epoxy (if I decide to take that route) as oppossed to machine molded like surf tech. I have heard that those do flex more and are a closer comparison. If anyone has any feed back on how they ride in comparison to your clark foam standard thruster that would be a huge help. Thanks and peace.
Why are you skeptical about epoxy? Its just a different resin and you can glass a Clark type PU blank with it.
Also, has the glasser made epoxy/styro boards SUCCESSFULLY before, and how many? Lots of variables here…
I’d hate to pay for someone else’s research and developement if my board is gonna fail within a few months time…
Hey Surf1813,
Epoxy over Clark foam works fine. Don’t expect it to feel the same as polyester. If it’s done right it’ll be lighter and stronger. The flex pattern will be different and the recoil will be way quicker. Epoxy flexs further than Poly without failure by a long shot. Be sure the guy glassing the board knows how to work with epoxy and do it right. It’s a completely different animal than Poly. I’m very happy with my boards that are epoxy over Clark foam, but that doesn’t mean much simply because everyone wants something a little different when it comes to surfboard performance and response.
No Worries, Rich
I don’t get it, I like a stiff board, the flexy ones I’ve had were just too unresponsive. The power of the turns were scrubbed off and lacked projection, I had a spot picked out on where I was going to hit it and it always came up short. I think that the rocker needs to be engineered for the turn, not bend the board to fit. I like a consistant feeling, not one thing now and another later, it doesn’t lend itself to consistant surfing. That’s just my take
Jim,
You are exactly correct about flex and its merit. I want the rocker to remain UNCHANGED during my rides.
I agree with you Jim and Bill! “flex” has to be executed perfectly there’s a lot of flex that’s kind of a mushy bendy buisness. the ideal flex in my opinion is more of a “release” like in fibreglass fins were the tip pushes water away. however air mats are another story.
I agree with all three of you. But I would like to add; specify Resin Research Epoxy. The industry leader.
I’m not a paid advertiser. I’m a satisfied customer.
Proof of leadership? This morning I sent Greg a copy of a patent granted last year to a Japanese firm for surfboard epoxy. Here’s one line from his reply.
“I was the first one to use cycloalaphatics in surfboards. Today they are widely used throughout industry.”
Need more proof? Let me know.
Bill, Jim, are we talking short or long boards? I am no where near accomplished enough a surfer to get the most out of flex in a short board, but I have on occasion felt the projection after loading up the shortboard with flex in a hard bottom turn. There is something to it. But one thing I liked about my old Surftech (one of the first) was it’s lack of flex. Particularly when padding out on big day and you just get over a wave and a regular board just shudders as it flops down. Hate that.
But, I think Bert has it (flex) figured out on shortboards. The projection thing is real. Real what, I don’t know.
i often wondered , how the hell do they get the space ship to land on the moon ???
well now i know , it takes some serious mathmatics , the laws of nature dictate that the moon will be in a certain place at a certain time etc …
but before putting the space ship there , first there had to be an understanding of the physical principles involved , only then could the correct calculations be made …
working with static curves is a simpler mathmatical calculation …
but it also limits the possible outcomes …
waves change , you can engineer the curve for the turn , but what about when the wave changes and the curve no longer suits the wave ???
tune the flex right , especially the rate of kick back and you will come up long every time , ive done it in the begining and everyone i know has done it first time around , gone to hit the lip and over shot it , eventually you start leaving turns till the last second because your board can spring to the lip in an instant …
the materials and how they effect performance is just another variable to add to the calculation …
the future is shaping without curves , but designing with curves in mind …
by using flex we can build a way larger range into a board…
i dont think anyone in the sixties would have imagined it possible to do ariel 360s on a longboard …
but thats where flex will take surfing …
there is a difference between stiff and floppy , then there is flex …
stiff with a flex that kicks in under load and a rapid springback , surely its not that hard to grasp …
regards
BERT
I just made a copy(hand shaped) of my PU/PE board in EPS/Epoxy (RR) and scaled it down 2" in length and 3/16" in thickness. took it out in waist/chest high waves, and was blown away! paddled better, and was real responsive. cant wait for some bigger surf to really drive it! i’m sold !!!
totally depends on YOUR particular needs and wants.
your inquiry is very vague (almost no design input) but here’s the short list on shorties:
Benefits of eps/epoxy:
lighter
stronger
better float
faster acceleration/response = faster avg speed
lower swingweight
crispier flex that lasts
ease of manufacture
Benefits of Clark/Polyester:
tried and true construction
nice flex (when new - deteriorates quickly over time)
nice feel
ok/acceptable longevity with reasonable glassing schedules (not so with ultralight schedules)
excellent cosmetics and art potential
easiest to manufacture
FYI - im a hardcore eps/epoxy and compsand afficionado
"totally depends on YOUR particular needs and wants.
your inquiry is very vague (almost no design input) but here’s the short list on shorties"
I am having a 6’2" bat tail quad made. 2 1/2 thick 18 3/4 wide. I am 5’10 170 lbs and have been surfing the majority of my life. My concerns with the epoxy was that the one surf tech I have ridden chattered against the water and felt super stiff. I realize that it is not a fair comparison with a hand shaped epoxy, but I have never ridden one so I was just looking for little feed back on how similar or different they ride from poly before I make my decision on which way to go. Again I don’t actually know from experience, but I have heard that epoxy does not rides as well in larger surf as poly. If it does, what causes this? I have also read that epoxy yellows faster.
Any info on this would help a lot
Peace
Quote:
"totally depends on YOUR particular needs and wants.your inquiry is very vague (almost no design input) but here’s the short list on shorties"
I am having a 6’2" bat tail quad made. 2 1/2 thick 18 3/4 wide. I am 5’10 170 lbs and have been surfing the majority of my life. My concerns with the epoxy was that the one surf tech I have ridden chattered against the water and felt super stiff. I realize that it is not a fair comparison with a hand shaped epoxy, but I have never ridden one so I was just looking for little feed back on how similar or different they ride from poly before I make my decision on which way to go. Again I don’t actually know from experience, but I have heard that epoxy does not rides as well in larger surf as poly. If it does, what causes this? I have also read that epoxy yellows faster.
Any info on this would help a lot
Peace
surf1813,
1st of all epoxy is the resin just like poly resin. Three of my boards are Resin Research epoxy on Clark blanks. So suspect your real question is should you go pu/pe vs eps/epoxy. To further distil the myths…
epoxy yellowing: this really depends on the epoxy. While I haver not had my boards long enough to say from first hand that they won’t yellow, epoxy yellowing has a lot to do with the epoxy itself. Resin Research seems to be the best and does not yellow.
big waves: sounds like there are a lot of good surfers ripping in hawaii on surftechs so that one seems to be false. Your custom eps/epoxy will have different flex characteristics than a traditional clark pu/pe board. Big wave capabilities will have more todo with does your shape know how to alter his shape to account for the change in weight ande flex of the eps/epoxy board or not. If he does what ever wave it is designed for you’ll be good to go, if not well then you just got another custome board designed/shaped/built for the wrong conditions. This has nothing to do with the materials themselves, but to do with does the craftsmen know how to work with the materials he has chosen.
I’d say talk to your shaper and see if you think he has a grasp of how to make a good eps/epoxy board (and is it going to be a good epoxy), and if so go that route. If he is just using his clark pu/pe knowledge and switching materials and does not have much experience then it is more of a crap shoot. One example… has he suggested altering the dimensions slightly if going with the eps/epoxy route? General consencous seems to be 1/8th - 1/4 inch thinner for eps.
Other questions are what sort of stringer configuration will the eps have? what weight foam? what glassing schedule?
In general you should get a lighter more durable, longer lasting board from the eps/epoxy route.
good luck
My shaper does seem to have his act together, (he has shaped good number of epoxy) and has spoken of changing the dimensions to fit the epoxy. I’m just basically doing my research and trying to quickly get feel for the positives and negatives before making a decision. I am going to demo a couple of epoxy’s he has shaped over the weeked (granted we have surf) and go from there. Good advice on checking up on what type of epoxy being used, stringer configuration etc.
Thanks and peace
Surf
ok then,
if your dealing with a reputable manufacturer who is willing to listen to design input, then tell them what you want to do with the particular board: wave type & and more importantly, your surf style. If they dont want to listen then look for someone else. otoh, if he’s making quads Im assuming he knows how so maybe you want his recipe for success. your call.
A lighter epoxy at that thickness is gonna be a cork for you. whos suggesting that thickness; you or him? I went from 2.5 down to 2 now with ultralights. For big surf DOH+, lots fo things work…well executed epoxy works too…just requires smart design.
Surftechs are stiff and very sensitive. A Loehr style epoxy will be much better. If I were you I’d go down to 2.25 thick max unless its glassed heavy.
Hopefully your dealing with someone whos experienced and professional. Otherwise its always a roll of the dice.
In the end its just a surfboard. Dont fret and learn from the experience…when you finnally get on a good epoxy, you wont look back…or maybe you will with major regrets for not doing it sooner.
Quote:
I agree with all three of you. But I would like to add; specify Resin Research Epoxy. The industry leader.
I’m not a paid advertiser. I’m a satisfied customer.
Proof of leadership? This morning I sent Greg a copy of a patent granted last year to a Japanese firm for surfboard epoxy. Here’s one line from his reply.
“I was the first one to use cycloalaphatics in surfboards. Today they are widely used throughout industry.”
Need more proof? Let me know.
Interesting, we don’t have Greg’s resin here but we certainly have Cycloaliphatic amines, as a matter of fact, that’s what I use. I heard it gives better UV resistance.
see below :-
Epoxy Resin Systems Safe Handling Guide The aliphatic amines, cycloaliphatic amines and anhydride curing agents may cause irritation or damage to the skin, eyes, and lungs. …
Hey Madman,
Maybe your mad cuz youve inhaled polyester resin too many times.
If you dont think RR epoxy is safe, dont use it.
Use polyester instead. Just make sure you inform your local environmental regulators of your intent, just to be on the up and up.
Its clear…when it comes to resin choice/use, pros and cons of each, IGNORANCE is NOT bliss.
To each his own…charge on you Madman!
I’m responding to Bert’s response about flex.
Part of me wants to say it’s not that important. I bought a used, yellowed Charlie Smith thruster that was one of my favorite boards of all time. I imagine it’s "live " flex days were long over.
Part of me, instead, understands how important flex can be. I think of skis. It made ahuge difference the amount of flex a ski had ( I use the past tense because it’s been over a decade that I haven’t skiied). Too flexy and they were like a limp… you know what (think rental skis). Too stiff and you really had to jump around to turn (I think of Dynamic VR17s, racing skis … you can tell I haven’t skiied in ages). Then there were my PRE 1200’s… just right.
The thing about skis, though, was you could flex them right there in the store and get a pretty good idea of the amount of flex. Not so with surfboards. How do you know???
I think my problem is, being a backyard/garage surfboard maker , making one board a year, I can never do the R + D and experimentation necessary to tune flex. So for Backyarders like myself, we will rely on outline and rocker and foil to negotiate our turns ( like Bill, and Jim and other have stated) and let the pros like Bert fine tune their instruments wih flex patterns.