Yeah, but do you know how much $$$$$ it would take to keep them tits calibrated?
Worth every penny to be sure.
VH.
That Elephant carving may have been done by a machine. Yep…no shit. A friend of mine was in Indonesia last year and he bought a container load of carved furniture. He said the factory it came from had around 30 shaping machines that did 90% of the carving. All the humans did was finish it off with hand tools. Sounds familiar.
I’ve got to agree with rob on this one. Interesting thread. When I look at boards that interest me the question of whether it’s hand shaped or not does not come into play. I really appreciate traditional skills but I equally respect the use of modern production techniques. I love to see great craftsmanship and even more to see people grow into great craftsmen. The cad/cam revolution we’ve seen is inevitable as the demand increases but that doesn’t mean that less thought and skill are present in the outcomes it’s just a different approach. I also share robs passion for the whole process and have every bit of respect for quality craftsmanship in laminating and finishing. Having never researched it I can’t answer if the art of hand shaping is dying out…but I have a sneaking suspicion that there may actually be more and more people shaping boards by hand…be it mainly hobbyists and backyarders thanks to this site alone. However, I’m almost certain that the majority of industry professionals are switching to machines just to keep up with demand. To me it doesn’t really matter. Like I said I repect all approaches. I teach design in a secondary school. This involves teaching kids how to use hand tools, machinery and cad/cam. All have their merits and their places and all have different levels of challenge. To be good with any takes skill…that it what I strive to teach. After all a surfboard that is either beautifully designed, hand crafted or works well is how we measure it’s success…it can be one of these things or all of them. Not everyone will have access to a shaping machine, nor a suitable workspace to work by hand in the traditional manner. I’m all for using the right tool for the job at the right time.
Cheers
Rich
Www.thirdshade.com
For many, shaping and surfing is neither a "sport" nor a business. It is an escape and a pastime. There are plenty of guys that want to figure it out on their own. What shape works best for them at certain spots. Just in my small area (relatively) there are a lot of guys doing their own boards. For myself, it was wanting something that I didn't have the skills to communicate to a board builder. I surf out of the away spots and tailor my boards to the wave and my needs. This whole process allows me to get away from daily life and get my head at ease. When shaping, or surfing it opens new or different vistas from the norm. Sometimes I look back at the land and am awestruck at the scene. Looking up a creek mouth or a river and seeing all the trees lit up and flowing along the watercourse takes me away. Can't get that view from anwhere else. That's why I do it. To get Away. Too bad it is increasingly becoming more difficult, (of course surfers have been saying that since the beginning).
ps. Like Ace, I like THICK blanks and most builders and blank makers don't do thick. I had to strike out on my own to get what wasn't there.
Yeah I think I’ve learned more about shaping (and glassing too) on here than I have by actually putting my hands on boards. And I’ll be sure to post pictures! I appreciate all the support, and I would LOVE to talk about ways to get the cost down hahaha.
And I should have worded my response differently, it sounded more like I was attacking you, not Mark Price’s argument.
Thanks!
Here on Oahu there are at least 2 or 3 shaping machines. I think most of the big name branded high volume boards are machined then cleaned up by a ghost shaper. Jim Phillips and talked a little about this yesterday.
The machine takes a lot of the work away from the chore of shaping a board, but it still needs to be finished. Most good shapers will take a machined blank and create something special by adding his or her changes. The machine shortens the time a human spends on doing a chore. That’s why machines were created. Before CNC surfboard shaping machines were created many of the top name shapers used special jigs for their routers and cut out the rocker and profile based on those jigs. I don’t see the difference from that and a CNC shaping machine, except that the shaping machine is computer controlled.
All really good shapers can take their planer and hack out a great board if they want. But why do that if you can start with a CNC roughed out blank?
The problem is how business runs these days. It’s not about the ones and twos anymore, and it’s not about making sure the local Mom and Pop store stays in business. It’s all about getting something for the least amount of money. Otherwise the Costcos, Sam’s Clubs, the Walmarts and all the other big box stores wouldn’t have destroyed the neighborhood Mom and Pop store.
We are the ones responsible for that. Those crying about machines taking over from handcrafted boards should look for another form of employment, or learn how to create something that will be so superior that people will be knocking their door begging for one.
The artists and craftsmen don’t care, they’ll keep on doing what they do at the pace they want because that’s the way they do it. Take a number and stand in line. Handshaping will never go away, ever. When the electricity stops flowing we can still make surfboards with our hands, shaping and glassing don’t need electricity.
"For many, shaping and surfing is neither a “sport” nor a business. It is an escape and a pastime. There are plenty of guys that want to figure it out on their own. What shape works best for them at certain spots. Just in my small area (relatively) there are a lot of guys doing their own boards. For myself, it was wanting something that I didn’t have the skills to communicate to a board builder. I surf out of the away spots and tailor my boards to the wave and my needs. This whole process allows me to get away from daily life and get my head at ease. When shaping, or surfing it opens new or different vistas from the norm. Sometimes I look back at the land and am awestruck at the scene. Looking up a creek mouth or a river and seeing all the trees lit up and flowing along the watercourse takes me away. Can’t get that view from anwhere else. That’s why I do it. To get Away. Too bad it is increasingly becoming more difficult, (of course surfers have been saying that since the beginning).
ps. Like Ace, I like THICK blanks and most builders and blank makers don’t do thick. I had to strike out on my own to get what wasn’t there."
i absolutely love this man. evey word you say is true for me
It worked for REEF!
Dear Huck,
You are a moderator and you started a thread that was guaranteed to be a train wreck, divide opinions, create anger and general disdain amongst the forum. Not very Moderator-ish of you??!!
Hi Marsh:
You make a good point however I believe Huck was very clever invoking such a controversial subject.
He actually did a great job starting this tread!
Kind regards,
surfding
[quote="$1"]
Dear Huck,
You are a moderator and you started a thread that was guaranteed to be a train wreck, divide opinions, create anger and general disdain amongst the forum. Not very Moderator-ish of you??!!
[/quote]
Thanks SurfDing.
Hey Marsh. You are entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. Did I recognize there was some risk, and so think twice before starting the thread? Absolutely. But I don't however really feel that this thread creates anger. Especially beginning as it does with a simple quote from a surfing magazine.
I think there are issues in the surfboard building community that are worth discussing, giving some thought to, and hearing each other out on, and this is one: Is the art of hand-shaping dying out?
The machines are here, we have to accept that. Nothing you or I do is going to change that. They are neither good nor evil in themselves, but are really just a powerful tool, as has been mentioned. We can respect that about them. But at the same time we, as a community, are a huge bulwark against the death of hand-shaping as an art. Is it premature to pronounce a prognosis of death for "the art of hand-shaping"? I, for one, think so. And apparently others feel the same.
A certain portion of our community own shaping machines, or use them regularly. I suspect an even larger portion use them from time to time. These are guys who can hand-shape as well or likely far better than you and I. They don't discuss it much, since there has been a lot of frustration and anger directed at the machines and those who operate them in the past. But I think we've come a long way, and I don't see that happening here. People are making good points in this thread, explaining different viewpoints, sharing their insights and experience, and so far, no train wreck that I have seen.
I guess you can't really discuss the death of hand-shaping without bringing up the machines, but the thread really isn't about machines. Its really the hands-on aspect that appeals to me, and I think, most of us who share on this forum. Its the honor of carrying that handmade tradition into a new era that I think we should cherish most, and share with as many as are open to listen.
For a surfer, there are few things as satisfying as making and riding, or making and watching someone else ride, a board we made by hand. To me, that is the essence of what Swaylocks is all about.
[quote="$1"]
...I appreciate all the support, and I would LOVE to talk about ways to get the cost down hahaha...
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Where is your location? If you're anywhere near StingRay and the low-tech lab crew, they can hook you guys up with trades and pool-our-resources-and-buy-together deals and helpful suggestions. Ray started a thread on that subject awhile back, if I can find it I'll post a link here. If not, just start a thread on the subject of cost-cutting, explain who you are and what you guys are trying to do, I bet you'll get all kinds of help and suggestions. There are a lot of us older guys here, and there are few things we like to see more than a stoked grom who's eager to learn this craft, and willing to get his hands dusty.
No worries Huck, and no hard feelings. Hopefully everyone can relax and make some constructive comments…
[quote="$1"]
The machines are here, we have to accept that.... Nothing you or I do is going to change that. ...there has been a lot of frustration and anger directed at the machines... I guess you can't really discuss the death of hand-shaping without bringing up the machines
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PLEASE CHOOSE FINISH OPTION FOR YOUR CUSTOM BOARD:
a)Sanded
b) Gloss
c) Human Flesh
LOL!
Don't forget blank options:
- eps
- xps
- polyurethane
- soylent green
In about 1973, I was chasing a beautiful girl around Switzerland and northern Italy and ended up in Florence with her and we went to see Michelangelo’s “David” in the Uffitzi museum. Even if you’re clueless and could care less about art - which I pretty much was - it will blow your socks off to see “David” in person and contemplate how one man “Hand Shaped” that chunk of farkin’ big solid marble - not to mention some of the Madonna stuff (I’m not a religious man) he did - she was beautiful too.
Can anyone contemplate “beauty” in a computer shaped “David” or “Madonna and Child”? There’d be none, it would look fake.
Pick up a Phil Edwards shaped triple stringer, Terry Martin shaped nose rider, Diff gun, Lopez Coral Cruiser, Brewer - anything he shapes, you know where I’m going here…there’s something there a real surfer could feel - otherwise, if you’re clueless, just play tennis or sup or something.
Art is shaped by artists. Trinkets and souvenirs of your summer vacation are made (not shaped) by machines.
Huck, I didn’t bother reading 6 pages of this post because every response should be a “NO!”. If anything, hand shaping is seeing its own renaissance these days, thankfully.
This is an exciting time for surfboard design and building - by hand shaping artists - that reminds me of what I/we lived through in the transition era when I stripped a 9-6 Noll “Da Cat” and shaped my first board - an experience that was more valuable to me than the board would have been to some yuppie scum at a vintage auction these last few years.
A lost art? NO…It’s more alive than ever…Just wish I was younger to enjoy it more.
[quote="$1"] contemplate "beauty" in a computer shaped "David" or "Madonna and Child"? There'd be none, it would look fake.
[/quote]
I hate to tell ya, but the David you saw was actually exactly that, a replica... The statue of David in the Uffitzi is a reproduction of the original, as is the statue in the plaza where the original once stood. The true original has been at Galleria dell'Accademia museum since 1873. Much like all the museums who display paintings like the Mona Lisa - most are actually replicas and so expertley made that they are indistinguishable from their originals except for by chemical analysis.
So is it possible to see beauty in a machine sculpted replica? I say yes, especially if the replica is perfectly reproduced to tthe point that it is exactly like the original. The beauty is still the same, the only thing that changes is how it was made.
That said, I still think there's a much higher quality from a hand shaped board than a machine shaped board, but the quality isn't in the performace of the finished product, it's in the heart, soul and sweat that has dripped and soaked into each unique finished product. If you look at boards that Eric Arakawa or Steve Morgan shape for HIC they all ride great because their based off that original design they hand-shaped to be scanned and mass-produced. Which is great for an industrialized company. But, just like music, I think the best qualities lie in not the perfections, but the imperfections
thanks for te advice huck! I’ll start that thread tomorrow morning before school!
and yeah a link to that page would be awesome, id love to check it out
Never. Not till they pry my Skil from my cold, dead hands.
Hand-shaping nearly 30 years.
Not one CNC file.
Stacks and stacks of templates.
No desire to change.
Barry
[quote="$1"]
...and yeah a link to that page would be awesome, id love to check it out
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