HHO-Open Your Mind, Your Ass will Follow: Cut your gas in half or more

General Discussion
1

Everytime you head for the surf you are burning gas and polluting the environment…if you are in a car. Gas prices are quickly escalating to prices that Europe has been dealing with for many years. Ever notice how small Europeans cars are? Smart cars? On and on.

Unless you have a mega trust fund or are Arnold Schwarzenegger, who can afford a hydrogen fuel cell Hummer, chances are you are feeling the pinch everytime you pull up to the pump.

It would have been nice to add to the quiver, but you are beng held prisoner by the ‘steed’ that gets you to and from the beach. Guess that fish or semi gun will have to wait? No. Read on!

Well here’s an alternative to going broke for gas. Be as skeptical as you want, that’s a good practice, really…but just remember they didn’t believe in the light bulb at first either. And if someone had told me I wouldn’t need to mix catalyst into resin to cure it, I wouldn’t have believed them.

This site is worth a looK:

http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com

Here is the scientific explanation of theabove known as HHO

http://hhogasgenerator.com

2

While I’m all for alternative fuel sources, this one has a long way to go to be a viable alternative. Running your car off your battery would be more efficient than using your battery to split molecules of water into H and O atoms. Then there’s the issue of fuel storage. Where does all the Hydrogen go? It’s probably something that will work, but right now, everything I’ve read about the system (other than the people selling the kit) shows that it takes more energy to create the fuel than running on conventional fuel.

Here’s a quote:

Quote:

Still, creating hydrogen is an energy losing proposition. Water is a stable molecule, and more energy is required to convert it to hydrogen and oxygen than can be recovered by burning the resultant gases, or by using them in a fuel cell. Solar or wind power just doesn’t cut it. You can’t generate enough to matter. If they’ve found a revolutionary way to generate hydrogen cheaply and easily (which I doubt), then that alone should make them rich. If they haven’t, then it’ll cost more in electricity than you save on gasoline.

I don’t know what the person quoted’s qualifications are, but my limited chemistry background tells me they are correct about H2O’s stability.

Again, I’m not arguing, just pointing out that if it’s too good to be true, it probably is. Currently, it seems like electric/gas hybrids (or even just a more economical regular car) is the best alternative (for fuel consumption, not environmental issues).

Given the advances in technologies, I believe that it’s only a matter of time before true alternative sources become viable.

Something else to consider, if you go to a more economical vehicle, what’s the cost difference? That is, going from a 15 mpg vehicle that is paid for, to a 40 or 50 mpg hybrid that costs considerably more than a regular gas powered one, when do you start saving money? Obviously, it ultimately stems from what fuel prices become.

3

We aren’t talking about a hydrogen fuel cell here. The cars that were adapted were done very simply and increased their fuel mileage by up to 77%. Old cars, SUV’s, trucks that had no other attention than converting with a simple adaptation. As far as IF it will work, it’s already in practice.

We are not talking about storage as you suggest…this is hydrogen fuel on demand much like water heaters using on demand heat rather than having to keep a storage tank periodically hot.

Four ounces of water to provide for the hydrogen source lasts for about 100 miles of driving, a quart for around 1700 miles. That’s far better than a bank of batteries that have to be hidden on board your car or using up what would have been trunk space.

There are vehicles that are running 100% on tap water rather than the gas and H20 method. Historically there are plans of ‘primitive’ patents on cars that ran this way when steam locomotives were widely used. Stanley Steamer ring a bell? Now those cars and the theory of locomotion were primitive compared to accessing the hydrogen fuel source from plain water. One use of this heat source is for blow torches. If you looked at the video it shows the torch melting a copper ball, burning up charcoal in a matter of seconds, burning a hole throuugh steel. The interesing note on this is the slight distance of th ignited fuel from the tip of the tourch which remains cool to the touch. Try that with an acetylene torch. Also as the toch cuts a hole through the material there is the ‘by product’ (water) running off from the work!

Your reaction is somewhat typical of the fine job of conditioning the powers that be (gas and utility companies, etc.) that are addicted to a patten of posting huge profits while the uninformed public continue to be willingly (or unwillingly) fleeced due to excercising trusting ignorance. Ignorance is innocent, stupidity is ignoring that which is clearly evident and beneficial to onesself.

I’m willing to scrutinize a claim to see if it is science or yet another scam. As far as your prudent ‘if it sounds too good to be true it probably…’ this is the reason why I pointed to the light bulb and UV resin developments. There are sooooo many developments that are currently out there andyet the ‘powers that be’ bank on our hardened skepticism or the big factions will either suppress or buy up the patents then bury them for years to come or permanently.

Man is a funny creatue. As I’ve said before “Apes with rockets”.

4

I think I’m with the skeptics on the water/hydrogen/electrolysis setups for cars: Hydrogen embrittlement

I am a big fan though of some of the tech that went into one of Arnold’s Hummers. Now that the US has cleaner diesel fuel, I’m hoping by the next time I buy a car a diesel-electric hybrid or a diesel - natural gas cofueled small car is on the table - without having to spend $28K on the conversion.

Water injection really intrigues me, but I’m guessing it would probably have to be designed into a car rather than added as an aftermarket kit for it to solve more problems than it caused, and even then it would probably make it difficult to meet some of the new emissions laws.

For now though, I think most of my surfing is kind of a wash. I get up early and surf near work: I figure the increase in mpg from avoiding rush hour traffic cancels out most of the extra mile or two spent going to the beach.

5

Thanks for including the access to hydrogen embrittlement. I wondered if this new energy source would result in having your engine wear out much faster. From the description, it sounds as though life expectancy for the current engines in cars might not fare well. Although we can’t be sure about that until actual cases are posted and made public. I guess that makes the folks hassling with cooking oil to power their cars a bit more comfortable.

As fas as adaptions to existing motors, I guess that was the view Lamborghini took toward refusing to install catalytic convertors in their cars for United States sales.

It’s certainly not unwise to remain skeptical, but skepticism with an eye on the future is not a bad practice to adopt. I can see someone out there buying up old cars that were ‘gas guzzlers’,’ then converting and running them for a time to finally turn it in for the $800 the DMV advertises as ‘take your junker off the road and retire it for $800’…not a bad way to buy up and run out a good condition old car from the past. Yet another approach to recycling.

6

… well DeadShaper show us your HHO gas car and we’ll all be open to being

as openminded as you.

The history of this is filled with gullible investors losing money.

However, there are few ‘legit’ companies from a few years back who were hyping

this for automobiles but have since ‘matured’ into offering it for industrial applications only.

7

been following this tech but got to say skeptical but open to the possibility, do you know anyone that actually uses it that you trust?patents been around along time ,could very well be legit,i will send you half the cost as if we get suckered we wont feel too bad, not that it will break the bank we can always send it to a pet rock cemetery.or maybe we can get into a real estate venture to sell a square inch of SB real estate at the ranch .these things come around every time gas prices go up.I would venture to say that if it was real the oil companies would have bought the patent along time ago and put it in mount Rushmore and it would have been in national treasure 2 or it would have been in the indy crystal skull.as i think they made enough money this first quarter to buy it ,if you get one and it works let us know ,as i am getting ready to use the old bicycle with surf rack thing free energy renewable fairly reliable depending on age and recyclable if you use a pine box.

8

You like to bandy about the word gullible a bit.

Being open minded has nothing to do with one’s level of educational background or lack thereof. Gullibility, oddly enough, indicates an ability for something…oh, the irony!

My previous assertion regarding the difference of ignorance and stupidity may have incorrectly struck a nerve somewhere causing a misfiring of your keyboard synapse. Let me restate the differences between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance is merely not knowing whereas stupidity seems to be rooted by knowing but not learning and acting accordingly. Stupid people seem bent on not learning from past experience(s)…they continue the same mistake over and over again.

There are always different camps that people prefer to center themselves in, but in the short time I’ve been here I’ve seen an acceleration of new ideas make the jump to reality with warp speed. From the unlikely gadgets on “Star Trek” that eventually have became common place in nearly everyone’s pockets, to the rather incredible discovery that stem cells can be implanted and emulate (thereby become) a cell that by previous logic would not allow this possiblity.

In most my life I’m not a control freak, this allows me to not be driven by the primal need to be in control of everything and everybody. I’m open to suggestion. I don’t feel a compelled to waste my time being on the defense of someone else’s suggestion. I allow the possiblity that established physics aren’t quite fully established.

As far as the HHO car comment. I’ve got an old gas guzzling 1976 Cadillac that is in great condition. It’s big and safe and perfect for my 16 year old son to be surrounded by a ton of steel. He actually likes the red leather interior, and the girl’s will love the flip down visor with lighted makeup mirror on the passenger side. My wife calls it ‘a pussy wagon’…hey, her comment, not mine. I think this could have been something Ike Turner or JB would’ve driven. There are people out there driving them right now!

Anyway, this is a great candidate for HHO. Hey, if it isn’t too muc more complicated, maybe I will look into the conversion to 100% tap water. Why the hell not? And all of you can laugh if all that great Cadillac engineering of years past “embrittles” the engine and falls apart in 3 weeks or 3 months…personally I doubt that it will. The thing might hurtle along like those old heavily glassed tankers that everyone is now charging a premium for to replicate.

If it works then I’ll be laughing as you shell out your $5 for a gallon of ethyl or regular. I’ll fill up at home with the garden hose. If I get low on the road I’ll just ask for a glass of water at the drive thru Jack in the Box.

Water holds a lot of power…we all know that, don’t we?

9

In the mean time, drive slower and follow these tips.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/EM-hypermiling-driving-tips-ecodriving.php

The environment, and your wallet will thank you.

10

Howzit DS, I have read up on Stanley Meyers who was the man who developed the technology. If you Goggle his name there is lots of info about the him and his dune buggy that he supposidly drove across the US using 26 gals of water. Aloha,Kokua

11

Why are you ‘promoting’ this?

Dont you know Detroit and the Automakers are taking note of your IP and you

will soon be a DeadShaper?

100% tap water VW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell

The history of water cars and HHO are full of just this kind of stuff.

However, there is some legitimacy to the concept.

This subject made the rounds of the internet forums 3-4 years ago

with people bowled over by the ‘wow’ factor started creating threads such as this.

Now its started again, numerous forums!

However, my level of discernment and firm grip on my wallet leads me to the following:

Quote:

The rig will generate hydrogen and oxygen, and your car will burn these along with the regular fuel. So in that sense, it does indeed work, plus or minus the inconvenience of the whole arrangement.

But it won’t save you any gasoline. That’s because the electrical energy that you use to dissociate the water into hydrogen and oxygen ultimately comes from the alternator, and the additional electrical load on the alternator translates to an additional mechanical load on the engine–that is, the alternator is harder for the engine to turn when it’s producing your hydrogen and oxygen, so the engine has to work harder. It turns out that some of this electrical energy also ends up heating the water, so you never get out as much energy in the form of burnable H2 and O2 as you put in through the alternator belt.

The people who promote such hydrogen schemes don’t understand this–they think that there’s ‘excess voltage’ or “unused energy” available from the car’s electrical system, and there is not. You could charge the battery at home, which would effectively power your car through your home’s electric meter, but it would be a good deal of work.

Not to mention all the fuel and engine sensors this will play havoc with on your car.

While others mention heat issues and having to have forged cylinders vs. cast cylinders.

Probably not too much money to try on an old beater though.

Of course I could be persuaded in due time to the contrary.

But not from someone on the internet intentionally or otherwise promoting this

without due experience and getting all preachy about open mindedness.

I’ve already found religion.

another round of fun?

12

Thats why i drive a 1952 willy’s. 38mpg city 42mpg Hwy, Diesel, with cat, no smoke!

13

I grew up ridng in a Willy’s…that was my mom’ car (wagon) and dad had an early CJ that was great for forging the back country in search of trout.

As far as the previous statement from Otis…I don’t think ‘preachy’ quite applies to a mere suggestion to take a look at this.

If there are new challenges presented with going the HHO route, then a willing participant has to look at +'s and -'s…no one is professing this to be a panacea (cure all to end all).

My supposition is that for every action there is a reaction. My reaction to heading toward $5 per gallon of gas is to:

A. move to a tropical island and live on the beach

B. move to France and use public transport only.

C. stay put and try to come up with a viable economic alternative

D. start my own church so I can truly be preachy and make a lot of $ off the God biz.

Now it may be possible that I have crossed the line with option D, but the Catholic Church has proven there’s a lot of $ in belief systems, so I offer limited apologies.

Why am I “promoting” this?

The only thing I’m promoting is for surfers that might be feeling the economic pinch at the pump to merely spend some time to look at a possible solution versus dying a slow econmic death. If you don’t mind being fleeced, don’t trouble yourself. If you have Annabelle the donkey out back that you can ride down to your favorite surf spot, I’m with you on that…give her a carrot for me.

Maybe the rest of the guys at your local reef won’t mind when you car pooled with 17 other guys in ‘crib jam’ style in the Corvair van you’re still driving.

26 gallons of water to cross the U.S.A. sounds like a good deal to me. Take a little extra in case you get thirsty.

14

I read somewhere that hydrogen based cars will be the norm in the next ten years. Honda also released a hydrogen based car in the States in limited numbers. Looks like petrol is finally going to have some competition. I hate monopolies…

15

Oh, as far as the big car manufacturers taking me out…if it as terrible as you say on the engine metal and electrical system I should think the big three, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, KI, Hyundai, and everyone else will be promoting my thread, along with NAPA, Pep Boys, and every auto mechanic across the United States and beyond.

There’s always a lot of building after a hurricane, tornado, forest fire, earthquake…with catastrophe comes new opportunity…and a lotta business and money to be made.

…how do you kill someone that’s already dead?

16

Now I wonder if those Honda hydrogen engines are completely a new material or not. I wonder if they will have to be $60K because of all the new technology demanding different cylinders, a different electrical system and on and on.

How did the water VW make it across the country wth melting if all those claims are true? I’m willing to sacrifice the '76 Caddy I got for $875 back when. I won’t risk this on my 4 Runner, but the Caddy can have at it. If it works, the kid and I will be fightng over it!

Maybe the OLD cars are better suited to adapting because they DON’T have all the sophisticated computer brains to go haywire. Maybe I’ll be looking for a non descript older car that is fetching a lot of money because it’s NOT a GTO, Chevelle, Duster, 442, Riviera, Toronado, Mustang, or Roadrunner. Maybe I could find an El Camino that might not command a high price or a Catalina, Falcon or Dart, a Rambler American, or Buick Regal or something, but it would be better to get a big pig station wagon like a Kingswood Estate or something.

NO ONE is caught dead in old station wagons anymore because they’re all SUV’s now. An old van is an option…or even the old Suburban’s that got like 8 miles a gallon. Run that sucker on water! Man, I’m getting excited.

I’d even like to see how long it took the hydrogen to crystalize the engine. I just would avoid driving it through the Sonora Desert and stuff like that.

P.S.

When growing up I was the kid the adults would yell “hey, you there! YOU CAN;T DO THAT!”

to which I would smile and cheerfully reply “sure I can, I just did!”

17

Please, do the conversion, post up how to’s and let us know if it works (or doesn’t).

18

No worries…just go to deadshaper/results/watergas_crazy_girlieman.com

…$9.99 operators are standing by (LOL)

19

im with you deadshaper. give the bloody thing a go. seems like quite a cheap and easy process anyway.

no matter how much people talk about it on this thread, we’ll never know untill someone (such as yourself, seen as you brought it up) gives it a go.

dont put it on the back burner either.

i wanna see the results. hell, ill even contribute to it if you like…

20

Water is converted to hydrogen and oxygen gas with significant energy losses.

It is then converted back to water with significant energy losses.

And in the end, you put in a lot more energy than you get out, a net LOSS far worse than putting gasoline in your tank. At least when you pay for gas, you get a net gain in energy. With HHO, you have to put in more energy than you will EVER get out.

Another possibility is that it violates fundamental laws of thermodynamics…because there is no chemical on earth that you can break apart and re-form without losing energy.