Thanks a bunch for the reply, i think you can get away with more than that % of alcohol.
But i think i have used only about 20 -40 ml in 400-500 ml of resin mix so between 5-10 %
And yes im excited about the new material i have to try, and its kinda fitting that its going to be used on a side cut short board inspired by dan mann and his work with trinity technologies on the cornice.
YEW!!!
I recently did a board with some vector net. I did 6oz, vector net and 6oz on the top, with the vector net between the two layers, 2lb eps, stringered blank, resin research epoxy. Small wave board of sorts.
Was I right in placing the vector net between the layers of glass? It’s as a lam over the entire deck, not just patches or something, and it wraps around the rails. I figured by being between the layers of glass it’d act on them together or something. I don’t really know though. It seems plenty tough as it’s been around all winter and there’s little to no damage. Waiting till the boots come off, to see if my bony heels cause damage. Probably could have done 6, vector net and 4oz and saved a bit of weight.
How do you use vector net, without adding weight of a extra thick hotcoat?
We do have custom Fabrics made based on our own internal design or from a custmer willing to meet the minimums. A perfect example is our Hex Weave Carbon Innegra Hybrid. Custom runs generally start around 4,000-5,000 yards and can take upwards of 15 weeks before we see an actual roll. Before we run anything custom, we bounce what we are making and why back and forth among our internal team as well as talk with customers we think would use the material.
It takes alot of resources in people and materials to run a custom anything. I’m sure there are small Mills that do short runs of a few hundreed yards, but the price per yard will reflect the short run and most likely make the material too expensive. You have to consider what it takes to weave/ run a new style.
The Mill has to source and purchase the Yarns. If the desired weave is something the Mill has not made before or maybe does not see a large market for, then they would not have the Yarns stocked. The Yarns are not sold in single short bolts. They are bulk buys the Mill will have to purchase. If it’s a Hybrid then the Mill will have to source several seperate Yarns. The Mill needs to pay for what they are doing and in turn will charge accordingly.
If there is something we get asked enough about, then we start our interanl conversation on why it’s being requested, who would use it and then tie the business portion in to see if it even makes sense to manufactuer. I’ve sat in on several meetings with Mills capabilities on very cool materials which just won’t work for Surfboards due to the cost. A good example (although not a custom fabric) is 1k Carbon. 1k plain weave is about the coolest tightest carbon in a woven fashion that I’ve seen and felt. The standard carbon everyone is use to seeing is 3k Carbon. The 1k is a finner filiment which requires further processing over the 3k. Therefor the 1k Yarn is extremely expensive. Prices for a 1k Plain weave fabric would be in the $100-$300/ Yard depending on yardage, width and world wide demand from the Aerospace industry.
HexWeave CI
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
What is your opinion on using a strand or 2 of CF roving(~1/8" diameter wetted and still round) as fillets in the corners when joining things perpindicular, compared to using epoxy thickened with wood flour and smoothed with a finger?
I tried the CF roving along the stringers, where they join the hull panel ( glassed on interior with 1.25oz cloth on a recent Hollow wood surfboard build, thinking it would be stronger and lighter than a similar amount of wood flour fillets, but am second guessing the wiseness of that decision.
Perhaps fiberglass roving would have been more compatible, or perhaps I just should have stuck with epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets.
Worrying a bit about secondary bonding too as months passed between time hull panel was glassed and then stringers joined to it with the CF roving. I scratched the 1.25oz cured epoxy saturated 1.25oz cloth with 180 grit where the fillets go, but was afraid if I went more rough it would compromise the weft. The Cedar likes to split along the grain, which runs parallel to stringers. Most all my repairs on previous HWS builds are from the wood splitting along the grain under impact and much of my efforts are in preventing this, at an acceptable final weight.
Is there any way of getting new epoxy to chemically bond to fully cured epoxy, or improve the bond beyond beyond ‘mechanical tooth’?
Greg,
Warp glass was / should be more than a fad. I think the word fad can lead one to think gimmick. I don’t think Warp glass was or is a gimmick for what it was designed for and intended to do. Simply put, Warp glass has increased fiber count in the Warp (nose tail direction) where the length of the overall board needs it. The direct result is an increased strength over standard plain weave E glass. It’s not a giant leap in strength, but it is there becasue there are more glass fibers running in the direction that recieves the most stress. The flat yarn in the fill direction makes for a flat stiffer feeling cloth which hotcoats better than standard plaine weaves which are made of twisted yarns.
John,
Great point & question.
So the finish does affect the chemistry of the fabric and in turn make a finished fabric weaker than an unfinished fabric. Surf Fabric has a finish for really two reasons. 1. The desire to have clear white surfboards. 2. Helping with Polyester Resin wetout. These lead back to my comment at the start of this thread about the standard Surfboard Fiberglass beeing desinged around manufacturing methods that utilize Polyester resins.
There are dozens of other finishes all specific for the industry or porcess they are used in. Volan is just one of those mostly used in the Boat industry. Technically Volan could be considered stronger. But the real increase in strength, over a board built with standard surf finished 6 and/or 4oz, is in the fact that most the Volan being used is a 7.2 oz. Yes, there are lighter and heavier Volans used, but the volume is in the 7.2 oz. So most boards built with Volan are stronger just by the nature of the heavier glass. The standard surf fabrics with the surf specific finishes are made in 4oz and 6oz fabrics. There are heavier white/clear fabrics, but they are not a true surf finish. A218 is the finish for Aerialite Fabrics that is specific to Surfboard manufactuering.
The picture you have of the wide ribbon fabric is of a spread toe carbon fabric. It is a 12k filitment that is spread out to make the wide ribbon. And yes, less over and under resulting in a flatter fabric resulting in less print through and potential less resin pooling. These are much flatter than 6k or 3k standard fabrics but still very strong. I mentioned in a previous response how 1k fiber filiments are expensive. 1k fabrics are desired becasue of how thin and flat they are while still being strong. On the other end 12k fibers take less processing and are therfore cheaper. So the whoel spread toe process is a way to get very flat / thin fabrics like 1k but at a much cheaper price. We will see more spread toe creep into Carbon Fiber fabrics. Right now custom car builders, Drone manufactures and larger Aerospace projects are utilizing the spread toe fabrics. The biggest probelm is their lack of stability prior to wetout. They don’t handle well and they will not drape well. A spray adheisive is a good thing to have handy when using these.
I pinched this diagram from http://www.turnology.com/. It perfectly shows what I describ above.
I’m assuming that you are using one of the two most common Vector net Styles. XPT 226 (Large Black Diamond) or XPT 227 (Small Black Diamond). I believe that the Vector Net should be the first layer against the foam. 1. It allows for more layers of glass over it which minimizes print through. 2. It’s easier to pull more resin out of the lam when the glass layers do not have a differnt material in between them. 3. It just seems right to have it against the foam…(No science behind #3, just my personal experience)…
X = Cross, P = Ply, and then the final letters name the yarn. T= Technora, C = Carbon, I = Innegra. Where the two letters are together, XPTC, they call out a Hybrid. In this example Technora and Carbon.
XPT 226 _ Technora +/- 75º 1 End/Inch _ 0.68 OSY (23.0 gsm)***Incorectly called Carbon Vector Net All the Time
XPT 227 _ Technora +/- 75º 2 End/Inch _ 0.89 OSY (30.5 gsm)***Incorectly called Carbon Vector Net All the Time
XPTC 138 12k Carbon 0º ,Technora +/-45º 2.6 OSY (88.15 gsm)
XPC 207 _ 3K Carbon +/- 60º 1 End/Inch _ 1.25 OSY (42 gsm)
XPC 210 _ 3k Carbon +/-30º , 0º 3k Carbon _ 1.62 OSY (55 gsm)
XPIC 202 3K Carbon 0º , Innegra 940d +/- 45º 1.27 OSY (43.06 gsm)
I think it’s imortant to start with the Vector Net against the foam as the first layer. If you are hand laminating just a single layer of 4oz over it, you will always get a print through pattern (high and low points). A 6oz is always better to cap when just using a single layer cap. Two layers of 4oz or a 6/4 combo will knock down the print through significantly.
Roving of any type is not a good material to join two things and be expected to maintain much strength in all direction.
For example, glass on fins. Roving is used to create a ramp (smooth transition) from the board to the fin base. Its the layers of woven glass placed over the roving that keep the fins from breaking off. The fiber orientation of the roving in the fin example does not lend itself to keeping them in place. A Fin glassed on with just roving would pop right off with a light side impact.
I’m really appreciative of the time you are putting in here. Many thanks!
Like many major board builders, I have been using XP138 for tail patches on my boards, thinking it would reduce tail dents from feet and knees duck diving. Am I fooling myself?
Hi Jamie,
For anti denting / crushing / cracking on the tail, XPTC 138 actually will work really well. It has the 12k Carbon running in combination with the Technora. The Glass cap over this patch is well supported with the Matrix of Carbon and Technora fibers. You have a supporting structure spreading load under the glass. So your use of this is doing exactly what you are hoping for. You also have the orientation correct with the Carbon running off the rail. If you are worried about flex, this orientation is the best way to allow the tail to flex and not lock it up which would happen if the Carbon was running lengthwise (nose to tail).
I would suggest using a spray adheisive (Aqua Net Hair spray works great) to lightly spray the fabric before you cut your patches. It will help hold the carbon together it you cut through it and keep it from fraying like you have in the picture (left side towards tail). I would also try and run the material further over the rail. Ideally you could tack it down with a spray adheisive and then trim with good shears right above the edge (not wrapping onto the bottom). This would be better to help prevent the rail foam from callapsing if you have a heavy back foot.
Excellent. Thank you so much for the tips! Definitely need sharp scissors when cutting the material or you get the pictured fray. Mine were at the end of their life when I cut those pieces, I guess. Now I just get the .99 Harbor Freight scissors and use them for 4-5 boards; then sacrifice the scissors to cut hanging wet glass strands when laminating.
here here
Good scissors are as important as any other quality tool in your bag. Although much more expensive than a .99 pair from Harbour freight, a good pair of serrated sheers cut through carbon and Technora like butter. If you take care of them they will last many years.
At what point do you think we should be moving from hand lamination to vacuum, when using different fibers from the standard 4-6 oz fiberglass.
are there specific types of pigments that work better with epoxy and don’t tend to soften/plasticize the cured resin? I’ve had recurring problems with this, particularly epoxy glassed over PU blanks…
Vacuum Bagging has it’s benefits and disadvantages.
The advantages are compressing of thicker fabrics, multiple layers of fabrics, better Resin to Fiber ratios, less mess (sort of), and of course the result is a much lighter part than possible compared to hand lamination. The compression of multiple layers getting them very flat and squeezing out excess unneeded resin is the main advantage.
The disatvantages are the increased material cost in the peal ply, breather, bag and a good Fu%k up period as you learn what works and what doesn’t. With surfboards that F up period included learning how to not bend the rocker out (flatter or banana), the right Vaccum preassure, your timing and many other minor details that result in a good or bag finished part.
Gotta be honest. I read your question a few times with absolutely nothing constructive coming to mind. I rarely have used pigments with Epoxy over the years but a few times. But your mention of a softer cured resin sparked a memory of a board (PU foam) Stu Kenson shaped me maybe 7 or 8 years ago that I glassed with Epoxy. As with most my laminations, I was enjoying a few beers after work and tinted a few cups with yellow and green resulting in my horible version of a resin abstract. The board was absolutely magic but just dented to destruction. The shell was soft feeling and I kept wondering if Lagunitas was to blame in helping me screw up the mix ratios. But now you’ve just cleared my conscience with your question. It clearly wasn’t my fault and I will go forward believing it was all the pigments. Thank you!
