Hotseat: GraphiteMaster's Chris Russell

 

 
I do not have any inside knowledge on what Libtech is using. They are, understandibly, very secretive with their production methods and materials. A cut Libtech, or any board for that matter, can be studied to see the construction and a guess on most of the materials. But what it doesn't show is the way they are doing it in a production setting. ie, efficiencies to lower costs. Those are really the main secrets. 
There is a really great article regarding Basalt and it's comparison to Fiberglass. The link is below. They also mention Libtech in the article and their use of Basalt in snowboards. 
http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/basalt-fibers-alternative-to-glass
The company that jumped into this discussion before was touting several positives. We do not yet sell Basalt because we really have not seen the demand. Based on the above non-bias article, Basalt sits inbetween E and S glass in regards to cost. But so does D size. Are we stretching to try and find alternatives that offer the same or close to the same properties of readily available materials? Maybe not.. Alternatives to the same old same old are great for inovation. Luckily the surfboard buying public is finally accepting boards that are not all perfectly white and clear. This opens the door for materials like Basalt. The only issue I have with several of the claims I'm hearing about Basalt and other fibers are how they are more environmentlay friendly. This phrase is easy to throw around but theres always more details that reveal these statements are not as true as they are touted. In Basalts case, it is made from pulverised lava rock. Fiberglass is made with Silica (Sand) and some additional materials. Both materials are naturally occurring. To me, the most environmentally friendly built surfboard is the one that lasts longer ie.. longer life cycle. If Basalt is that much stronger than E Glass, then it could have a longer life cycle. But so can a host of other materials.  

Thank you Graphite Master Sales Team…Keep up the good work!

So…today I meet up with my friend…he works for Graphite master…He hands me a surfboard built by Dan Man. Says it’s hand laminated…Wow…crazy good in every way. I can’t wrap my mind around the shape…over sized round tail…light…trick materials…Quad, ect…

Graphite guys… please post photos… I can’t make it thru another dry post with no photos…

You guys are rad…Claim it! Post photos!   

Hi Greg, 

First a little background on what Innegra exactly is for those who don’t already know. Instead of copying and pasting and trying to make myself appear smarter than I really am, I have included some homework links. 

http://www.innegratech.com/#!technical/flls0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innegra_S

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypropylene

The first thing to understand about Innegra ​is it works best with Epoxy Resin. It’s a tough fiber. It offers little in stiffness but can take a solid impact. It also, much like Aramids, offers great dampening which comes into play on EPS boards or boards using a lot of Carbon Fiber. Understanding what a fiber does then points to the orientation based on the desired outcome. With Surfboards, we want the Warp direction (nose to tail) to be rigid enough to hold the shape, rocker etc… So the Innegra by itself laid in this direction without any additional materials would leave a very tough but overly flexible board. Although the type of Epoxy used would add some stiffness, just not the desired result. Innegra fabrics have the tendency to be a bit difficult to work with in a hand laid part. The material has memory and from on a roll it will want to curl. As a result it will want to pull away and not stick down when wrapping rails. It also tends to soak up Resin.

So what kind of Innegra fabrics are there?

-Innegra Plain Weaves and​ Twill Weaves.These use the Innegra Fibers in both the Warp and fill direction. ​

-Innegra Hybrid​s such as ​Plain and Twill Weaves. These would have Innegra fibers running in one direction (either the warp or the fill) and a Fiberglass or Carbon running in the other direction. ​

-Commingled Yarns which are a Innegra/ Fiberglass , Innegra/ Carbon or Innegra/ Basalt Yarn. These fibers are intermingled at the filament level.

-Spread Tow Unidirectional all Innegra or Hybrids. This is a relatively newer and pretty interesting process. It takes larger fiber bundles in Carbon (usually 12k Fibers) and Innegra and, using a basic explanation, smashes and spreads them out. The result is a very flat thin product. Traditionally with Carbon Fiber, light flat fabrics come from 1k carbon Yarns. But with carbon, the smaller the Yarn the more expensive. As an example a 3k plain weave 42" fabric is in the $20-30 per Yard Range. A 1k at 42" will be upwards of $90 / Yard. A 6k and then again a 12k yarn are cheaper than the 3k and so the logic goes that a nice thin product that is not nearly as expensive as a 1k woven can be achieved using the spread tow method. These fabrics do not contour well. So not good for wrapping rails. 

​For board building the Hybrid Fabrics are, in my opinion, the best to use. You do have to pay attention and/or ask about the fiber orientation when purchasing. There are Hybrids that have the Innegra in the Warp which are, as pointed out above, not the best for Surfboard construction. You want to have the Innegra in the Fill direction with either a Fiber Glass or a Carbon in the​ Warp Direction. 
​The Fiberglass or Carbon Fiber in the Warp direction helps give the board stiffness while the Innegra in the Fill provides the Impact toughness. 

You can also use a all Innegra fabric against the foam and then cap with a regular 4oz or 6oz. This increases the toughness by having the Innegra fibers in both directions and maintains the stiffness with the cap layer. This also gives you a sanding buffer. Just like Aramids (Kevlar, Technora) Innegra does not like to be sanded. 

We have found the all Innegra Fabrics, over 3oz, can get heavy in the hand layup scenario. So we have really narrowed our offerings down to a 2oz ​all Innegra fabric. There are also Vector Net Innegra products which take advantage of the off axis orientation and can offer some laminate support under load like the other Vector Net products (That Chinese finger trap again). Although this does offer the support, it will not be as good as the Technora version. Innegra has much greater elongation (will stretch more) than Technora. I did not originally believe the Vector Net versions offered much in regards to impact resistance due to the gapping of the Yarns. But I have had several customer testimonials swearing it does. The Innegra Fibers are absorbing impact /shock and spreading them along the fibers. 

The Innegra/ Glass Fiber Hybrids have been slow to catch on in surfboard construction. I think mostly due to the added difficulty and care needed to properly laminate them. They seem to drink Epoxy and as a result add weight. But a careful lamination can result in a nice light board. A good method for hand laminating these fabrics is to wet the shaped blank first, pull the fabric over and then cut your laps while the Epoxy soaks up through it. You get a much better controlled result and won’t keep dumping resin on thinking you have not wet the fabric enough. 

The proper use of Innegra and Innegra Hybrids can definitely help make a better tougher board which lasts longer. 

This first pic below is a Carbon / Innegra Hybrid woven as a Hex Weave. It’s basically a modified Twill weave which has Carbon fiber in the Warp and Innegra in the Fill. The other two pics are of our MaxPly product which is a Spread Tow Innegra / Carbon Hybrid. Very thin and light. 40 grams of Carbon and 40 grams of Innegra per side yielding a 80 gsm weight. 

 

 



Hey CR

 

Great to see that here is talking about skins, and you guys are doing amazing things over there. 

We are starting to get a few using Basalt hybrids in Australia.

We are using Direct glass and Basalt with some of our products including our Nylextra as well. Finding it complements each other, Similar flex but we are finding Basalt sits in between S glass and carbon. 

Different feel on Eps/epoxy construction

 

 

You saw Dans "Short Game" model he made for Justin, our GM. I have one as well which Dan and I traded back and forth all winter. I won't get into the design as those are questions for Dan. 
Although this board does provide a perfect example of materials allowing for a design to push past the confining box of traditional builds... That box being the standard glass job using Polyester Resin and traditional woven fiberglass. The Short Game has a very unique side cut shape which blends into a very wide tail. The rail around the tail is extremely thin and as a result, very responsive. Normal layers of Fiberglass would not hold up under the stress and pressure created by the surfers back foot on this design, especially where it is extremely thin. He could lay multiple layers of Fiberglass to reinforce it, but that would add bulk and weight which Dan is trying to shed for this particular model. So Carbon Fiber along with a Sub laminate of Technora Vector Net is being used to stiffen and reinforce the board. The one you saw was hand glassed by Terrance at Flagship composites. He did an amazing job using the Carbon / Innegra Hybrid Hex Weave (with a Orange tint) on the bottom and the Spread Tow Unidirectional MaxPly on the Deck. I believe the deck is also capped with our Flex Glass Double Bias +/-45 D Sized Glass​. 
A cornucopia of fun new materials. (been dying to have a chance to use that word). 
The one I have is Vacuum Bagged by Dan using the Technora Vector Net against the foam and then capped with the Double Bias Carbon Fiber (150 gsm or 4.42 oz) on the bottom. The deck has the Maxply inlay over the Vector Net. That's it. I believe the one I have is 4 1/2 lbs or there about. It was designed for small waves but goes really good in bigger stuff as well. At least in San Diego. 
I am eager to see more guys  (or girls) who can shape, design and glass themselves, (and there are many out there) begin to think about design in a way that breaks away from the confinement of the materials. Thats where Surfboard design and construction has plenty of room for growth. The materials that the aerospace industry has had, and now we have access to due to dropping prices, makes for an interesting road ahead. Yes, the materials cost much more than what everyone is use to in regular fiberglass, but the results combined with an innovative shape can be the future...... (again, in my opinion).....
Regarding your request for us to claim something...We only find and provide materials for the board builders to use. The individual craftsmen to full blown Surfboard manufacturers are the ones figuring out the innovative uses and new directions with the materials. So for us claiming won't do much good and, in my opinion, is unhealthy. Thats Kinda like the guy who claims every wave. Theres always someone going bigger, faster and just plain better coming up behind him (or her).




Do you have any suggestions for improved Futures box patches?

Something hopefully thinner than 4oz, so it has less distortion of the bottom contours, and strong to reduce twin fin delams.

Most Future boxe failure happens from too deep of a route and then globs of resin sitting under and ontop of the box. There is no structure in resin. So they crack and fail. If the route is clean and tight allowing for the box to fit snuggly into the routed area, they will sit flush with the foam and not have any space for resin to pool and create a weak spot. I really believe it is that simple. Any future box I have had cracked or broken out has had one thing in common, Crappy routes with the Boxes sitting too deep. I have, when I screw up and have a deep route, packed a few layers of glass under the box to add some thickness and add some structure other than just foam.

I don’t think 4oz as a patch is a bad material for what the goal is. If the box is installed correctly, 90% of the problem is taken care of. The 4oz is a great patch material becasue the weave is loose enough to get trapped air out and still strong enough to add an additional layer of reinforcment. Since it’s the same 4oz as your laminating with (in most cases) it will clear out and leave no dark area showing the patch. 

There is a 2.3oz and a 3oz Impact glass we have. It is very strong for the weight. It’s strength is due to the tighness of the weave (many fibers per square inch). The tight weave also will cause a possible bubble chasing problem when it is layered under the bottom lamination. The other issue (also what helps make it stronger) with these Impact glass Styles is they have a differnt finish on them. In other words not the clear Surf Finish you find on 4oz and 6oz Fiberglass made for surfboards. So they will be visible by being slightly darker where they are placed. 

Die cutting a stronger material like a thin Spread Tow Carbon or Innegra would be an option. Maybe our MaxPlyt…I think someone tried getting that going (not sure on the material used) for a bit on the new FCSII boxes. I havn’t seen it for a while so I am assuming it dittn’t catch on. 

The other thing not normally taken into account is the foam supporting the box where the route is. Soft foam would allow for an easier failure. The harder the foam supporting the box, the less likely you will have a failure. So with that, you could route ovals, rectangles or what ever shape of a high density foam and plop them in where you intend to route the Future boxes. The resulting box once lamianted over would be very strong. Some Prone and SUP race boards made with 1lb foam are built with a high density piece routed first into the area where the box will go. The the box route is then cut into that hard foam. Solves the problem. 

Let’s try to wrap this one up by the end of the week and let Chris get on with his work.  Anymore questions?

 

Great thread!